The discussion today went great. One piece of short prose was read, and then we got on with the discussion. About eight people came and they all stayed throughout the event. Transcript can be found below.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Topic: Avicenna on life-forms and the universe
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Quotes taken from "Philosophy" by Stephen Law.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Avicenna (Ibn Sina) is a scientist and astronomer from Persia in 980-1037. He's best known for his "Cannon of Medicine".
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: He supported the cosmological argument for God's existence known as the "Kalam argument".
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: This argument "begins from the observation, gained from al-Farabi, that all things in the universe are possible beings,
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: meaning that they might not have existed and have no inherent reason for existing."
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: "The "essence" of such beings is said to be distinct from their "existence," so the fact that they exist is not determined by what they are."
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: "Therefore they must depend on something else for their existence, and must be caused to exist by something else."
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: "However, this cannot be true of everything that exists, otherwise there would be an infinite regress and no ultimate ground for the existence of anything."
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: "It follows that there must be a being whose existence is necessary, which is its own cause and sustains everything else in existence."
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Avicenna thought that being was Allah.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Avicenna follows the same idea as the Neo-platonists, in that all being emanates from God as its sustaining cause."
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: "This implies that events and actions are predetermined, thus problematizing ideas of moral responsibility and divine justice."
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: This isn't intended to be a conversation about God, Gods, or any being as such. If possible, I'd like to replace the idea of God as whatever you want it to be.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: A force, an energy, or even God if you'd prefer. View it how you like.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: However, I'd like to focus on the rest of the premises Avicenna comes to a conclusion about.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: What do you think? I open the floor.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: [ you have reached the end of the current notecard - resetting to first line... ]
[10:18] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I'm impressed by your summary, Chare. There is one thing I'dd like to add
[10:18] Chraeloos: Sure Rhia
[10:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: This argument is usallally associated with Leibnitz, centuries later, and he posited an underlying assumption that makes the argument work. Otherwise, it's the fallacy of composition.
[10:19] Rhiannon of the Birds: And that is the Principle of Sufficient Reason--everything must have a cause.
[10:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Everyone see how, without that, it's a fallacy of composition?
[10:20] Chraeloos: Vaguely Rhia, I understand what you're saying yes.
[10:20] Chraeloos: Indeed, but must it? Do no random acts occur?
[10:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, the whole universe might be the random act
[10:20] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oops! There's a universe on the floor. Now, who's fault is that?
[10:21] Chraeloos: hahaha
[10:21] Sedona: smiles...
[10:21] Chraeloos Resident: SpeakEasy HUD detaching...
[10:21] darcon Xue: I think there is not random act :-)
[10:22] druth Vlodovic: oh, Leibnitz changes it from material-based to a time-based argument
[10:22] Chraeloos: Right Rhia, but what Avicenna is arguing is that some being had to come before the universe so that it could be created?
[10:22] Calliope Novaland: the randomness seems to be within a greater structure that is organized
[10:22] Chraeloos: Darcon, so you agree with Avicenna? How come?
[10:22] solik Bayard: we must find the place of the" divine" on this bitter earth, and what's divine means for you all?
[10:22] solik Bayard: we must find the place of the "divine" on this bitter earth, and what's divine means clustering for you all?
[10:22] darcon Xue: all things are relacted
[10:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, yes, but the thing about Leibnitz is that he is talking about the series of depenent beings. Even if they go on forever, there has to be a cause outside the series, for set-theoretical reasons
[10:23] Chraeloos: Organized Randomness Calliope?
[10:23] druth Vlodovic: a primary cause argumant I can see, but I don't see how it is related to the idea of a primary essence of things
[10:23] Calliope Novaland: or perhaps random within some structure
[10:23] Rhiannon of the Birds: Organized randomness. Like a hockey game?
[10:24] Arabella Eyre: Excuse me, is this an essentially different argument than Aristotle's Prime Mover?
[10:24] Chraeloos: Solik, I'm not sure what divine means to me. Ultimate truth maybe? I don't think it comes in a physical form.
[10:24] Calliope Novaland: there was a theory called Chaortic that made sense to me. from the 70's I believe
[10:24] Chraeloos: What was it Calliope?
[10:24] darcon Xue: the snake biting its own tail :-)
[10:25] Rhiannon of the Birds: Arabella, well, that depens on what you mean by essentilly? AVicennia is arguing that everything ha to have a cause. Aristotle argued that a causal chain, like every other series, has to have a beginning
[10:25] solik Bayard: so special, i agree yes!*)
[10:25] Calliope Novaland: chaotic order I think he was saying
[10:25] Chraeloos: ouroboros, darcon?
[10:26] Rhiannon of the Birds: Eek. My connections are being intermittent
[10:26] darcon Xue: ouroboros, I don't know?
[10:26] druth Vlodovic: actually the idea of a first cause is dependant upon the sequential nature of time, hasn't that been disproven?
[10:26] Chraeloos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros
[10:26] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, no, eactually, if Stephen Hawkins is right, there is a beginning to time.
[10:26] Chraeloos: By who druth?
[10:27] Chraeloos: That's an interesting idea Calliope. Who brought that about? Do you know?
[10:27] Rhiannon of the Birds: Space-Time had a beginning in the Big Bang, and it is meaningless to ask what came "before" Time (the sequene of baefore and after) So the first caue argument has been revivied in astrophysics
[10:27] druth Vlodovic: well, I keep hearing about time being malleable, running at different speeds in different circumstances etc, if it isn't rigid then it doesn't need to be sequential in all cases
[10:28] Calliope Novaland: the name escapes me but you can find it on wiki I think. it is the man who invented the visa card
[10:28] darcon Xue: yes, ouroboros, Char. Thank you :-)
[10:28] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, oic. Well, yes, that is so. I hadn't made the connection. Thank you
[10:28] Chraeloos: that's interesting druth. I knew someone once who came up with the idea of "throwing time". Well, I don't know if they're the first to think of it but I found the thought fascinating.
[10:29] Chraeloos: Oh neat Calliope.
[10:29] Rhiannon of the Birds: But neither Leibnitz nor Avicennia's depens on the sequential nature of time, only the universality of causation
[10:29] Chraeloos: Right Rhia
[10:29] druth Vlodovic: causation is time-dependant
[10:29] solik Bayard: must leave bye all!)*
[10:29] Chraeloos: thanks for coming Solik, TC
[10:29] Arabella Eyre: Bye Solik
[10:29] Calliope Novaland: bye solik
[10:29] druth Vlodovic: isn't it?
[10:29] Chraeloos: What druth?
[10:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: And even given the malleable nature of time, if time is part of the Space Time continuum, then it all "began" with the big bang, so there is a primary sense of sequence that the others may be erivitive from
[10:30] druth Vlodovic: but if time is malleable then it doesn't need a start, or an end
[10:30] druth Vlodovic: the envelope of exsitance would be uncaused
[10:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, depends. For Leibnitz, it is a fundamental necessity, and that can be logical, or causal. We ccan envisage a cause that underlies the whole sequence
[10:31] druth Vlodovic: only by inventing god
[10:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, not a start of an end, but something to prope it up, as it were
[10:31] Chraeloos: interesting Rhia, I can't seem to "visualize" before the big bang. No time, no matter, essentially nothing.
[10:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: Aquinas took on all these "modern" notions in the Summa
[10:31] druth Vlodovic: "turles all the way down" :)
[10:31] Chraeloos: lol druth, that comes up a lot hey
[10:32] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds giggles at druth
[10:32] Arabella Eyre: Yes, I've been visualizing those turtles since we started
[10:32] druth Vlodovic: it's on old question, if god made us who made god?
[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: Good old bertand Russell
[10:32] Chraeloos: druth, God doesn't have to be a single being, or even multiple, or even a being at all.
[10:32] darcon Xue: we are god :-)
[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, well, god sent his father bak to impregnate his mother andd save her from a killing robot. No, wait a minute, that was John Conner
[10:32] druth Vlodovic: maybe we made the universe as a place we can be :)
[10:33] Chraeloos: perhaps "God" is the force that "created" the big bang, if you can visualize creating something from absolute nothing.
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: God sent a killing robot bak, in order to give the technology to a corporation, so they ccoul create him
[10:33] Arabella Eyre: Lol, Rhia
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: No, wait, that was Skynet
[10:33] Chraeloos: Rhia, lol
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: But my point is, that for God, who can time travel, he ould go back and be his own grandpa
[10:33] darcon Xue: :-D
[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: Read "All You Zombies" for how self-asuation could work
[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: SL is swallowing my 'c's
[10:34] Chraeloos: Good point, I think most people assume that God is a constant, unable to manipulate time. As in the "seven days" thing, it's all based on time.
[10:34] Chraeloos: that's odd haha, C-wars?
[10:34] Calliope Novaland: does it come down to the question, does God exist outside of us and our realm or is it everywhere?
[10:35] druth Vlodovic: well, I discard the idea of god because of the tutles problem
[10:35] darcon Xue: It is all there is :-)
[10:35] druth Vlodovic: it just creeates another layer with the same problem
[10:35] Chraeloos: Always, druth
[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, and not just time, but a different concept of time. The sun wasn't created until the 3rd day. But in ordinary language, a day is a period of the sun going around the earsth
[10:35] Calliope Novaland: substitute any name for "God", energy, light
[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, well, since God is infinite, he encompasses the turtles
[10:35] Chraeloos: Right Rhia, so technically that isn't possible, based on what we know now.
[10:36] Chraeloos: Right Calliope
[10:36] darcon Xue: oh do not take bible so literaly :-)
[10:36] Calliope Novaland: that is it though druth, does that layer exist or not? regardless of names
[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, tnot that it isn't possible, it's just that a 'day' doesn't mean 24 hours
[10:36] druth Vlodovic: my thought is "no"
[10:36] Arabella Eyre: There is an idea in Jewish mysticism called Tzimtzum in which God contracted himself to allow for an independent world of causation.
[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: It could be a day in the life of Brhama, i.e., an eon
[10:36] Arabella Eyre: For Himself there is no space or time
[10:36] Chraeloos: Point taken, Rhia
[10:37] Chraeloos: Ah, hadn't heard of that Arabella, interesting.
[10:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Computer gamses allow us to understand God. I was talking to a student about Go being outside of gtime, being able to move bak an forth tgrhough it; he said it makes sense, he does that in his computer game
[10:37] Chraeloos: I wonder how one would goa bout contracting themselves in that sense haha
[10:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, and it's a good thing God is honest, or he might have cheated Himself
[10:38] Arabella Eyre: I should have said "apparant" causation.
[10:38] druth Vlodovic: there does seem to be evidence of shoddy workmanship
[10:38] Chraeloos: Interesting point Rhia, I hadn't thought of that before. It's a neat visualization.
[10:38] Chraeloos: haha druth, there always has been, and likely always will be
[10:38] Arabella Eyre: It allows us to see ourselves as having the ability to make decisions, and act freely rather than be subsumed into the whole
[10:38] darcon Xue: maybe another god greadt Her? :-)
[10:39] darcon Xue: created*
[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: darccon, that's the turtles problem druth alluded to
[10:39] darcon Xue: well, we was not created here :-)
[10:40] darcon Xue: weare part of all there is
[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, SL is not the only reality. Sometimes, I think that there is a greater one...
[10:40] Chraeloos: Now, that's a loop darcon. Alternate universes?
[10:40] Chraeloos: Ah rhia, you got there faster
[10:40] Chraeloos: lol
[10:40] Arabella Eyre: That's an illusion, Rhia
[10:40] darcon Xue: take a cell of your body
[10:41] Arabella Eyre: Allowing us to think there is something greater than ourselves
[10:41] darcon Xue: you have all information there do build your body
[10:41] druth Vlodovic: there are legends of the "lindens" who move about us mysteriously, on errands of their own"
[10:41] Rhiannon of the Birds: Arabella, I think you're right. For if there were a so called RL, then wouldn't there be a more real life beyond it? And so forth. Turtles again
[10:41] Chraeloos: Ah druth, there's a key. Horton Hears a Who, anyone?
[10:41] Arabella Eyre: My tail is stuck in my mouth
[10:41] darcon Xue: :-)
[10:41] Rhiannon of the Birds: Seriously, though, virtual worlds gave me a handle on a lot of what Plato had in mind by levels of reality.
[10:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: Or what Theodora meant when she thought that Jesus was an avatar of God
[10:42] Chraeloos: An illusion Arabella, why?
[10:42] Chraeloos: Agreed Rhia
[10:42] Arabella Eyre: RL an illusion?
[10:43] darcon Xue: there is not such separation from god
[10:43] Chraeloos: "Allowing us to think there is something greater than ourselves"
[10:43] Calliope Novaland: who knows, what is illusion
[10:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, an appearance of a greater realtiy. So RL is first life, and then there is Zeroth Life, the life of the soul
[10:43] Arabella Eyre: It all became clear when I tried to explain the reality of SL to my husband
[10:43] darcon Xue: you can see yourself as a manifestation of it
[10:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Arabella, yes, that's what I mean when I say SL can help you understand mysticism
[10:43] Chraeloos: So they are all equal Rhia?
[10:44] Chraeloos: one is not "greater" than the next?
[10:44] darcon Xue: they are one :-)
[10:45] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, equally real, but not as genuine
[10:45] Chraeloos: Perhaps darcon, what makes you think that?
[10:45] darcon Xue: I am one with you :-)
[10:45] Chraeloos: interesting word choice rhia. Why "geniune"?
[10:46] Arabella Eyre: We seems more free to be who we know ourselves to be?
[10:46] Chraeloos: Confounding Arabella. lol
[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: I'm influenced by Vlatos, who tried to figure out what levels of reality meant. And he conclued it was line art work--where some are more genuine that others. What if you took from a Touloose Latrecc and added to it? It is not as genuine as ann original, but closer than a true fake
[10:47] druth Vlodovic: if we assume an underlying layer of reality things get complicated very quickly
[10:47] darcon Xue: Know thyself
[10:47] Chraeloos: Are you suggesting that we are what we make ourselves to be, Arabella?
[10:47] druth Vlodovic: we'd need fate to create the situations that get mirrored in "material reality"
[10:47] Chraeloos: Ok Rhia, that makes sense.
[10:47] Arabella Eyre: It's a sliding scale. More free in SL, less free in RL.
[10:47] Chraeloos: Why fate, druth?
[10:48] druth Vlodovic: let's say I get brain damaed and can no longer control my enotions
[10:48] darcon Xue: we are creating ourself right now
[10:48] druth Vlodovic: for this to happen to this layer it would need to happen to my underlayer as well
[10:48] darcon Xue: ourselves*
[10:48] Chraeloos: Finding truths, darcon?
[10:48] darcon Xue: no :-)
[10:48] druth Vlodovic: which means that what happens in material reality would be able to affect the underlayer
[10:48] darcon Xue: making choices :-)
[10:48] Arabella Eyre: From 48 years of deeds already done, and choices already made, in my case.
[10:49] Chraeloos: Fair enough darcon :)
[10:49] druth Vlodovic: or else the underlayer would have to run about creating things that we see reflected in the material layer
[10:49] darcon Xue: "what would you like to be right now? "
[10:49] darcon Xue: I am love :-)
[10:49] Chraeloos: Also zen, darcon haha
[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, "As it is on Earth, it is in Heaven?"
[10:49] Chraeloos: Druth, that's an interesting perspective.
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: The battles of the nations refelting the battles among the angels (as in Daniel)
[10:50] darcon Xue: :-D
[10:50] druth Vlodovic: we spend all this time trying to make them correlate
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, sure beats working
[10:50] druth Vlodovic: why not just have one layer and different perspectives on it
[10:50] druth Vlodovic: occam's razor
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, it's all one layer, just different levels
[10:50] Chraeloos: I like to think that things can work randomly and independently, but something tells me that's not true. Of course, everything needs a cause - cause and effect - but that makes me uncomfrotable.
[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: My opinion, anyway
[10:51] Chraeloos: Sorry, typos.
[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: Why does universal causation make you uncomfortable, Chrae
[10:51] druth Vlodovic: your discomfort is probably the result of social conditioning chrae
[10:51] Chraeloos: I'm not sure. I've been trying to hit that nail on the head for a while.
[10:51] Chraeloos: That's possible druth.
[10:51] darcon Xue: we are 100% responsibe, Chrael :-)
[10:52] Chraeloos: I don't mean responsibility, darcon.
[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: For some people, it means we are all fated, and for other's it means no free will. That makes a lot of people uncomfortable
[10:52] Chraeloos: It's farther back from that, I'm zooming out haha.
[10:52] darcon Xue: :-D
[10:52] Arabella Eyre: You mean, it bothers you that there might be an "umbrella" plan?
[10:52] Chraeloos: I guess it's more of a lack of comfort because of independence. I don't like the idea of relying on each other, but of course that's our nature, how we came to exist.
[10:53] Chraeloos: And in a causation sense, we are all relying on each other for our "fates"
[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: One question I have for you Arabella
[10:53] Calliope Novaland: why don't you like that idea? that is our strenght I think
[10:53] Arabella Eyre: Yes, Rhia?
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Where the heck are you? I see your tag, but not you. Unless you're hidding under arcon
[10:54] Chraeloos: Lack of trust, Calliope. I have very little trust in the "umbrella" sense of society. As a whole, I don't trust us. As individuals, I do.
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, we can till be independent, in the sense of autonomous, or self reliant, and there be universal causation or even interepenence
[10:54] Arabella Eyre: I'm recling on a double cushion to your left, I think.
[10:54] Chraeloos: I think so too, Arabella.
[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: ok, now I see you. Had to zoom out
[10:55] Calliope Novaland: not the umbrella sense of one umbrella for all, that is not human scale. but building a web of individual souls is the answer I thing
[10:55] Chraeloos: I realize that, Rhia. But the thought still makes me uncomfortable.
[10:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: It's an immersive trait i Have. Have to see everyone
[10:55] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles at Rhia.
[10:55] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds pats Chrae on the need and rubs her leg
[10:55] darcon Xue: :-)
[10:55] Chraeloos: What's the difference Calliope?
[10:55] druth Vlodovic: hmm, a not on "fate"
[10:55] Calliope Novaland: scale
[10:56] druth Vlodovic: take anything that exists and follow the path it took to becoem what it is and how it is
[10:56] druth Vlodovic: there is only one path
[10:56] druth Vlodovic: lol, hence "destiny"
[10:56] Calliope Novaland: I am concerned with those I know, those that live where I do
[10:56] Chraeloos: Yes Calliope.
[10:56] Chraeloos: druth, are you talking in the past or looking into the future?
[10:57] Calliope Novaland: too much "concern" at a global level is having devastaing results
[10:57] druth Vlodovic: looking into the past
[10:57] Chraeloos: Sure is, Calliope.
[10:57] druth Vlodovic: but when we imagine this into the future we get prophecies
[10:57] Arabella Eyre: YOu reminded me of a book Crae
[10:57] Arabella Eyre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
[10:57] druth Vlodovic: and the ones that seem to fit the new reality are called "true" when they are no such thing
[10:57] Chraeloos: druth, do you think prophecies hold truth?
[10:58] Chraeloos: Ah ok, too slow lol
[10:58] Chraeloos: Oh that looks interesting Arabella
[10:58] druth Vlodovic: they hold the truth that someone had info and the ability to extrapolate
[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: Hmmm. I'll retaliate and cite "Extraordinary Mass Delusions and the Madness of Crowds."
[10:58] Chraeloos: I already disagree with the title lol
[10:58] druth Vlodovic: and considering how powerful the unknown regions of the mind are...
[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: Witchcraft histeria, tulipomania
[10:58] Arabella Eyre: I didn't read it, but there was a RabioLab episode on NPR that explored the notion.
[10:58] Chraeloos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thanks, Crae
[10:59] ChraeloosChraeloos nods at Rhia.
[10:59] Arabella Eyre: There are probably more of those Chrae
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: A little out of date, but gets the point aross
[10:59] Chraeloos: druth, that is true. There's so much we have yet to know about
[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: The phantom gasser
[10:59] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds laughs
[10:59] darcon Xue: Prophecies plot has but it does not imposes.
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not to mention the sim that was on lock ddown beccause eeryone the owner knew was me.
[11:00] druth Vlodovic: the big thing people like about fate is that it doesn't matter how much we screw up because it is never wholly "our fault"
[11:00] darcon Xue: Prophecies are made to fail.
[11:00] Vase red roses: Calliope Novaland donated $50
[11:00] Chraeloos: druth, that makes me uncomfortable too.
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Prophecies always succeed, darcon. For if they don't, we merely don't understand the
[11:00] Chraeloos: Thanks Calliope! HUGGIES
[11:00] druth Vlodovic: :) welcome to agnosticism char
[11:00] Calliope Novaland: Huggies Chrae!
[11:01] Chraeloos: Ok guys, that's the hour, but feel free to stick around and chat.
[11:01] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
If you want an invite to the group let me know :)
Thanks for coming everyone! Feel free to stick around and discuss, we're always open.
[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Whew!
[11:01] Sedona: huggies ty !!!
[11:01] Calliope Novaland: Fate is one of the many things that relieve people from taking action I think
[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Quite a lively discussion today. Thanks, guys
[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Calliope, I think I'll take a chance on fate.
[11:01] druth Vlodovic: because there is no personal consequence
[11:01] Chraeloos: I think it's an excuse, Rhia, for people to behave badly. Some times, not always of course.
[11:02] Calliope Novaland: Yes, I enjoy this. Thank you all!
[11:02] druth Vlodovic: but this is the purpose of underlying reality
[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: The madness of crowds, CChrae?
[11:02] Chraeloos: lol, always Rhia
[11:02] druth Vlodovic: something that moves us despite our wishes and that we can't damage
[11:02] Chraeloos: Thanks so much Arabella! HUGGIES
[11:02] darcon Xue: if they succeed, we got it as fate.
[11:02] druth Vlodovic: hence, no consequence from our own actions
[11:02] Arabella Eyre: Thanks for the discussion. Time for the illusion of work. Bye all.
[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: It was prophecied that no one would believe prophecies until it was too late
[11:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, I have to go to that higher reality for a bit
[11:03] Chraeloos: Yeah druth, I don't like that concept. I think people need to take responsibility for their actions, or everyone will do whatever they please. Which isn't always bad but there's always one spoiled egg.
[11:03] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Arabella, TC!
[11:03] darcon Xue: Have a nice time Arabella love :-)
[11:03] Calliope Novaland: oh that's good. one of the prophecies has to be true haha
[11:03] Chraeloos: lol Calliope
[11:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, we ccan be responsible and fated. One of the best discussions of that wasn't really a discussion. The only good thing to come out of the LeHeye series--Assassins
[11:04] Chraeloos: Rhia, I haven't heard of that, fiction?
[11:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: It's part of the Left Behind series
[11:04] druth Vlodovic: the "only"? I take it you're not recommending the book then
[11:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: And in it, a group of Christian teerrorists decide to take out the anti-Christ
[11:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: They do it entirely of their own free will
[11:04] Chraeloos: Oh ok
[11:05] Chraeloos: Looks interesting
[11:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: Fated Free Will
[11:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: And bring about the part of Revelation where the AntiChrist dies, undergoes a false resurrection and is infused with the Spirit of Satan
[11:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, great, chat lag. lol
[11:05] Chraeloos: uhoh Rhia, always a danger on this realm.
[11:05] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles.
[11:05] darcon Xue: :-)
[11:06] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, well, it's a series of about 24 books. The first was hack fiction, but interesting. And it's a very long series
[11:06] Chraeloos: Jeez, every time I go to a discussion at least three books get added to me "to read" list.
[11:06] Rhiannon of the Birds: Very popular; posits the world post-Rapture. What happens when, apparently at random, a billion people just vanish
[11:06] druth Vlodovic: ugh, as if "battlefield earth" wasn't bad enough
[11:06] ChraeloosChraeloos raises her eyebrows.
[11:06] druth Vlodovic: that was only ten books
[11:07] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, Leheye and his co author's ministry became very wealthy from it
[11:07] Calliope Novaland: sounds like a good story Rhi
[11:07] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, and they have another series--the whole thing rewritten from the point of vview of the President of the United States
[11:07] Chraeloos: Wish I could write series that would make me really wealthy...lol
[11:07] Chraeloos: Euw, Rhia.
[11:07] Chraeloos: lol
[11:07] druth Vlodovic: pick a religious theme and sell it in the US :)
[11:07] Rhiannon of the Birds: It atually is, as long as you don't take the theology too seriously. They have odd interpretations of some things, like the 144,000
[11:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: It's not deep, except for the one book, hence my comment. But it is entertaining
[11:08] Calliope Novaland: take theology seriously? haha
[11:08] Chraeloos: lol druth, sad and true.
[11:08] druth Vlodovic: that's the number of norse warriors who live in valhalla
[11:08] darcon Xue: :-)
[11:08] Chraeloos: Ah entertainment value, I wonder when this will stop haha.
[11:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, really? Interesting
[11:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: 12 x 12 Ii wonder if there's an archetype
[11:09] Chraeloos: I'm thinking the topic for next week will be Zeno of Elea, on movement being impossible. Anyone interested?
[11:09] druth Vlodovic: I wish I could remember where I got that from,
[11:09] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, that sounds great, hrae
[11:09] ChraeloosChraeloos smiles.
[11:09] Chraeloos: I thought so too.
[11:09] Rhiannon of the Birds: I'll ldo some checking up on summing infinities, which is the modern way to get around the paradoxes. Don't think it works
[11:10] Rhiannon of the Birds: Ecept it does explain why your pet turtle dies if you shoot an arrow through its head
[11:10] Chraeloos: That will be interesting to hear about Rhia.
[11:10] ChraeloosChraeloos claps her hands to her mouth.
[11:10] Rhiannon of the Birds: A scene from a movie, where a guy takes Xeno's paradoxes a little too seriously
[11:10] Rhiannon of the Birds: Forget the movie's title though
[11:11] Chraeloos: ...not a bad thing to forget...lol
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: A blend of Achilles and the Tortoise, and the arrow paradox
[11:11] darcon Xue: :-)
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: I assume.
[11:11] Chraeloos: I assumed so too
[11:11] druth Vlodovic: I prefer kicking a rock
[11:11] druth Vlodovic: unless you really plan to make soup
[11:11] Rhiannon of the Birds: druth, yeah, safer, unless you brak your toe
[11:12] Chraeloos: Depends how big the rock is
[11:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not with your pet turtle, druth
[11:12] Chraeloos: turtle soup, druth?
[11:12] druth Vlodovic: "Nadine noodle soup"
[11:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: I like Mock Turtle soup myself
[11:12] Rhiannon of the Birds: Clears the sinuses
[11:12] Calliope Novaland: thanks for the great discussion everyone. I must be off
[11:12] druth Vlodovic: mock turtles are hard to find, I think the French ate them all :(
[11:13] Calliope Novaland: see you soon!
[11:13] Sedona: waves..huggies..
[11:13] Chraeloos: TC Calliope, thanks for coming!
[11:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: bye, Callipee!
[11:13] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, need to eat before my next SL romp.
[11:13] darcon Xue: :-)
[11:13] Chraeloos: Gosh guys, I never heard of turtle soup before
[11:14] Chraeloos: But since it's french I guess it's because I'm cheap
[11:14] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles.
[11:14] Rhiannon of the Birds: It's best with sauteed snails
[11:14] Chraeloos: ><
[11:15] druth Vlodovic: snails are good
[11:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: And just remembaear, anything is better with ketchup
[11:15] Sedona: thank you all !! blowing kisses around...waves..
[11:15] druth Vlodovic: ugh, heathen!
[11:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, except liver. Nothing, not even MSG, can fix that
[11:15] Chraeloos: Thanks Sedona, TC!
[11:15] darcon Xue: waves love :-)
[11:15] Sedona: ♥
[11:15] Chraeloos: hugs all around :)
[11:15] Rhiannon of the Birds: bye all!
[11:15] Chraeloos: TC Rhia, thanks for coming!
[11:16] darcon Xue: hugs Chraelove :-)
[11:16] druth Vlodovic: I'm going to wait until everyone is gone then say goodbye so I don't miss anyone
[11:16] darcon Xue: Have a nice meal Rhia love :-)
[11:16] Chraeloos: lol druth, I live here so good luck ever escaping
[11:16] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I won't keep you, then, druth
[11:16] druth Vlodovic: oops :)
[11:16] Chraeloos: lol
[11:17] darcon Xue: :-)
[11:18] darcon Xue: see you loves :-)
[11:18] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds waves and poofs
[11:18] darcon Xue: Thank you :-)
[11:18] druth Vlodovic: thanks for the discussion
[11:18] druth Vlodovic: it was interesting
[11:18] druth Vlodovic: have fun
[11:18] Chraeloos: thanks for coming! TC
Tuesday, 21 February 2012
Monday, 20 February 2012
Corona Anatine Lecture Feb 26 2012
Ancient Technology with Corona Anatine, Sunday Feb. 26, 2012 noonSLT
The next presentation will include Corona's interpretation of some rock art.
WARNING: This will be fairly graphic/medically clinical
Not suitable for children at the screen or for those of a sensitive imagination as part of the presentation will include a review of the medical effects of nuclear weaponry on the human body.
The next presentation will include Corona's interpretation of some rock art.
WARNING: This will be fairly graphic/medically clinical
Not suitable for children at the screen or for those of a sensitive imagination as part of the presentation will include a review of the medical effects of nuclear weaponry on the human body.
Sunday, 19 February 2012
Corona Anatine Lecture Transcript Feb 19 2012
Today was Part 4 of the invention and evolution of magic, and likely the last in the series. All four transcripts can be found on either blogs and online in the cafe.
I left out all the discussion that occurred after the hour was up, even though it was really great. It will be in the transcript in-world, however, so if you want to read it go pick up the notecard (all the notecards can be found in the square world textured cube on top of the fireplace.
It was a great series, and I'm sorry to any who missed it. The last transcript can be found below:
[12:15] Corona Anatine: ok this week ui will hope to complete this set
[12:15] Corona Anatine: as i mentioned i will start back a short way
[12:16] Corona Anatine: D representative art
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Red ochre as mentioned was also used for cave surface decoration. Five main colours were available, as far as is known
Red [43.7%], black [48%], yellows /browns [5.3%] and white [rare]
Most cave art was single colour, and much is colourless incised lines.
Bi and polychrome only accounting for some 3% [Bahn P & Vertrut J 1988 p7.]
Because so many theories have been formulated concerning this art, all of which probably contain some element of the truth for some at least of the art, and because this activity spanned some 25,000 years starting circa 35k bp it is very unlikely that all of it represents ritual of a magico-religious purpose.
Certainly the earliest known in Europe [Chauvet in France of 35,000bp] is seen as purely decorative.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Studies of Australian ethnic art reinforces this idea
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Some of the painting being full of sacred power and dangerous to touch [Smith C E 1991 p46] or even for some groups [usually = other gender to artist] to see, [Smith C E 1991 p48] while other art was just for its own sake. [Ucko P J & Rosenfeld 1967 p160]
[12:17] Corona Anatine: 11% of Palaeolithic art seems to have a clear 'hunting magic' connection so can be quickly passed by, as being fairly straightforward of interpretation of meaning.
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Other art seems to have deeper and probably magical symbolism possibly connected with ancestors/shamans and/or shamanic style religions and initiation ceremonies.
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Several facets of the art suggest magical symbolism and function.
[12:18] Corona Anatine: i) The overlaying of images suggests it was the act of painting which was important, rather than the image itself [Ucko P J & Rosenfeld 1967 p135]
Palimpsesting occurring even when nearby surfaces were left untouched’ [Laming-Emperaire A 1962 p145] indicating that the shape of the surface also had significance. Some surfaces being part of the depiction where natural shapes in the rock are used for eyes etc
[12:18] Corona Anatine: ii) the use of rock surfaces that are difficult of access. [Clarke G & Piggot S 1965 p79] Some being made on surfaces that would have been deep within caves.
[12:18] Corona Anatine: iii) The fact that 'inner' cave sites rarely show evidence of frequent visits. [Richards G 1987 p229]
Although the exact relationship between a site and the distance from palaeo habitation is difficult to prove because of possible changes in the cave systems and its access points.
[12:19] Corona Anatine: 1] The occasional examples of possible ‘notational’ decoration
Bahn P & Vertut J [1988 p80 & 182], Marshack A [1991 p24]. Possibly relating to lunar symbolism. The phases of the moon probably being the principal means of time measurement then available, [or it could mean something totally different of course] or perhaps the numbers are just the result of chance. Moreover the mere fact of lunar phase recording does not automatically mean there is any magical connection. However the connection seems likely given the associations.
[12:19] Corona Anatine: 2] The Presence of geometric shapes and designs
There is a vast amount of this sort of art, possibly as important as representation of animals, possibly even more important. Bahn P & Vertut J [1988 p44], These images are strongly reminiscent of the phopshenes mentioned earlier. Such entoptic impressions are suggestive of use of hallucinogens or transcendent states of perception, ‘trances’ which are a strong component of shamanic tradition.
[12:20] Corona Anatine: Eliade M [1964
[12:20] Corona Anatine: Alternatively or additionally, ‘the motifs of the serpentine/zigzag and the spiral could represent the concept of flow and continuity…of time, blood or water.’ Marshack A [1991 p27], imagery of ‘female power yet again.
[12:20] Corona Anatine: Lewis-Williams D, [1993 p286-287] further points out,
[12:20] Corona Anatine: that with drug use or trance, the images take on a stereoscopic brilliance and depth. While in deeper trance the phosphenes can blend together to form images of animals and people etc, as is seen in the interblending of horse and phosphenes in Lascaux
[12:21] Corona Anatine: where they frong legs in the image sply out into phosphene dots
[12:22] Corona Anatine: as this example shows
[12:22] Corona Anatine: there are many similar
[12:22] Corona Anatine: Many cultures worldwide assisting trance states with vegetable materials. Stafford P [1992] and De Rios MD [1990].
In light of which it is interesting to note; “ excavations at Non Nok Tha in Thailand yielded in graves dated to 15,000 bce the remains of animal bones that appear to have had plant material repeatedly burned in their hollow centres”; McKenna T [1992 p151]
[12:23] Corona Anatine: [one of the few thigns Mc Kenna can be trusted on
[12:23] Corona Anatine: some of his writng being very strange to say the least
[12:24] Corona Anatine: 3] The predominance of horse and bison.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: These two species comprise 60% of animals seen in surface representations. Horses alone accounting for 25-30% of the art. However when it comes to actual faunal remains only 0.01% are horse. This shows that horse and bison are not what is being exploited as a food/use resource.
Therefore horses must signify something else. Attempts have been made to find locational and positional relationships within the cave art, [laming and Leroi-Gourhan]. But all failed, because too many exceptions to proposed systems were found.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: However a number of facts point towards a possible meaning. Which can ultimately only be speculative due to the nature of the material.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: i) There is long term continuity “ the only phenomena known which has such stability is religious symbolism” Richards G [1987 p300]
[12:24] Corona Anatine: ii) Laming's pairing of bison or horse with women/female.
[12:25] Corona Anatine: iii) The association of fired clay animals and female figurines at Dolni Vestonice. Both types being designed to explode when fired in a hearth.
[12:25] Corona Anatine: [possibly of divinatory purpose]
[12:25] Corona Anatine: iv) The crescentric figures variously labelled as ‘vulvas’ or horse hooves.
[12:25] Corona Anatine: Perhaps both being correct the double symbolism being intentional. In the cave of Commarque many appear opposite a huge carved horse
[Although a horse image carving near images of horse hoof prints is not too unlikely]
[12:26] Corona Anatine: v) Two engraved horseheads above an apparent birth image from the Magdalenian site of Gunnersdorf, “may represent a symbolic sacrifice or some other type of relation of the horse to human birth” Marshack A [1991 p27]
[12:26] Corona Anatine: this is the second image
[12:27] Corona Anatine: so the 'birth' depiction is only an interpretation - others are possible
[12:27] Corona Anatine: vi) The association of multiple barbed ‘arrows’ with women bison and horses whose derivation is possibly visible in Azilian pebble stylisation.
[12:27] Corona Anatine: vii) [Single barbed arrows on the other hand seem to be arrows for ‘hunting magic’]
[12:28] Corona Anatine: Because of the association birth= blood= death/rebirth, it follows that
[12:28] Corona Anatine: If the horse is [as seems likely/possible] associated with birth
[12:28] Corona Anatine: Then it follows that the horse is associated with death/rebirth, and furthermore with magic and the ancestors.
[12:28] Corona Anatine: two peices of information reinforce this
[12:29] Corona Anatine: i) The carving of the triple horse lifestyle baton
[12:30] Corona Anatine: This "baton" is of reindeer horn carved into the shapes of three horse heads – two live horses, either a mare and stallion or a colt and adult horse – and a flayed skull of a dead horse
[12:30] Corona Anatine: [flayed horses are a whole feild of cave art in themselves - which is too vast to more than hint at here
[12:31] Corona Anatine: ii) When burying their dead in caves floors, the people of the Magdalenian are likely to have often disturbed Solutrean levels. Occupation levels which comprised “ human remains mixed with mostly bones of wild horse intermingled with worked stone tools” Trinkaus E and Shipman P [1993 p107].
[12:31] Corona Anatine: Marshack A [1991 p27] further points out
[12:31] Corona Anatine: “…they suggest a complex symbolic and mythological semantic for the horse with a relation to the feminine occurring in different forms”; and “ the horse is often associated with water related images: the fish, the zigzag the snake and the stream, [all of which have female association/symbolism]
[12:31] Corona Anatine: Moreover the cave itself probably constituted a female/womb space. Maybe even ‘vagina dentata’ in its aspect of initiation/danger/chthonic spirits [Eliade M 1958a]
[12:32] Corona Anatine: Horses are further clearly distinguished from bison when the shape of the surface decorated is considered.
88.6% of horses being on concave surfaces, while 78.7% of bison and 82.6% of cattle occur on convex surfaces. Bahn P & Vertut J [1988 p176].
[12:32] Corona Anatine: These facts strongly suggest that the horse represents ‘feminine’ power and ancestor power, or perhaps simply ‘magic/power’. If so then logic would suggest that bison/bovines represent the opposites, of ‘masculine/mundane world’
[12:32] Corona Anatine: [Always assuming of course that the artists worked within such a mental/conceptual framework].
[12:33] Corona Anatine: 4] Female/venus figurines.
[12:33] Corona Anatine: These are well known enough to need little discussion, other than to mention
[12:33] Corona Anatine: and could supply a months worth of presentations at least
[12:33] Corona Anatine: i) Over 60 are known from across Europe [as of 1994 when this was written]
[12:33] Corona Anatine: ii) “ A universal religion based on a specific female ‘Goddess’, is unlikely in a society such as that of Palaeolithic Europe” Ehrenberg M [1989 p73]
[12:34] Corona Anatine: Certainly Goodison L & Morris C [1998] show that the whole concept was far more complex than to allow such a simplistic interpretation of a ‘universal mother goddess cult/religion.
[12:34] Corona Anatine: And “ small scale societies, such as [are presumed] to have likely existed then, typically focus on general spirits and forces rather than on personified individual deities, let alone priestesses with specialised task functions, which imply a political and social organisation far more complex than is likely to have existed” Ehrenberg M [1989 p74]
[12:34] Corona Anatine: A priest class was also unlikely before the rise of more complex societies, as a study of early literature such as the bible indicates there were two classes of individual concerned with supernatural entities.
[12:35] Corona Anatine: Shamans, who were those who had the dream/trance etc ability [however acquired or owned]
[12:35] Corona Anatine: and priests, who were more in the way of assistants to the shaman, being their to ensure the correct rituals etc were observed, lore keepers in a sense.
[12:35] Corona Anatine: A point highlighted by GE Swanson, who, in a statistical study, showed that there are positive statistical correlations between the social complexity of a culture and the nature of the entities in a cultures belief system. [Swanson GE 1966, p 96-7, 107, 120 & 178]
[12:36] Corona Anatine: iii) Many female figures display a ‘wrist ornament’ which Marshack suggests are illustrative of a garment worn of perishable material, although the zigzag pattern could also be symbolic
[12:36] Corona Anatine: iv) It is “probably suggestible that all images of the abstracted female torso symbolised the potential fertility” Marshack A [1991 p20]
[12:36] Corona Anatine: Which is fairly reasonable, although possibly as valid as saying that christianity was a death centred funerary cult by examination of its iconographic.
[12:37] Corona Anatine: In a similar way to Burgess describing Stonehenge as ‘a place of death’ because bodies were buried there.
The same is true of a modern christian church on that basis.
So female figures indicted female fertility does not get much further. In view of the rest of the earlier discussion further emphasis is likely redundant.
[12:37] Corona Anatine: 5] Non –female images
[12:37] Corona Anatine: These are of two sorts
[12:37] Corona Anatine: ‘dancing’ figures with horns,
[12:37] Corona Anatine: and the Lascaux shaft scene.
[12:38] Corona Anatine: Based upon the evidence given above it can be concluded that it shows a scene of symbolic magic.
[12:39] Corona Anatine: in my origina essay i put together an interpretaion of the scence which went into complex detail
[12:39] Corona Anatine: however
[12:39] Corona Anatine: yesterday [while looking for a shaft scene image to upload] I found this, which may indicate a cosmological aspect.
[12:39] Corona Anatine: http://www.artepreistorica.com/2009/12/palaeolithic-shamanistic-cosmography-how-is-the-famous-rock-picture-in-the-shaft-of-the-lascaux-grotto-to-be-decoded/
[12:40] Corona Anatine: Which relates the shaft scene to a constellation pattern
[I have not had time to read the article as yet so cannot comment further]
[12:40] Corona Anatine: but does match the idea behind a lot of other studies
[12:41] Corona Anatine: regardless - it does seem to have had some magic-religious meaning
[12:41] Corona Anatine: Other ‘shaman’ images are very doubtful as being shamans [with one exception] because of misinterpretation of palimpsested engraving [which I covered in an earlier presentation a few weeks ago]
[12:41] Corona Anatine: Even if it is generously accepted that some at least are shamans after all
[12:42] Corona Anatine: then another problem immediately arises,
[12:42] Corona Anatine: in that none of the images, even if of humans, score very well on the ‘five definitions of shamanism set by Glosecki
[12:42] Corona Anatine: , at least three of which are required for a system of beliefs to be classifiable as shamanism.
[12:42] Corona Anatine: The five indicators of shamanism being [full reference not supplied with source for this]
[12:42] Corona Anatine: 1 animism 2 healer 3 trance state 4 animal helper 5 initiation
In which the shaft scene gets 2.5 while all other images score 0
[12:42] Object whispers: sorry, you are not permitted to change fire settings
[12:43] Corona Anatine: This is less than promising as evidence that the images are actually ‘shamans’.
[12:43] Corona Anatine: This leaves circumstantial evidence, for which there are, three main threads:
[12:43] Corona Anatine: i) The similarity of ethnographic evidence for groups at a similar technological phase to that found in the early upper Palaeolithic.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: ii) Slight evidence of Palaeolithic drug use, involved in both shamanism and initiation.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: iii) The worldwide similarity of details of shamanic practice, which are even more unlikely to have such universal form as found ethnographically, purely from common perception/experiences.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: Therefore if not common experience, it must stem from common origin, and at an early enough period to permit the diffusion found.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: [ a copy of that phoot would be gratefully recived]
[12:45] Corona Anatine: A further indicator of possible initiation practices is the presence of Palaeolithic objects often coated, perhaps consecrated with red ochre. These are very similar to bullroarers used in initiation in many ethnic groups worldwide.
[12:45] Corona Anatine: Initiation in the Palaeolithic is also suggested by
[12:45] Corona Anatine: a) The footprints in cave, which are of a size belonging to younger individuals.
b) The frequent use of caves for initiation, found in many ethnographic accounts.
[12:45] Corona Anatine: In conclusion
[12:45] Corona Anatine: There is positive evidence for belief systems in the upper Palaeolithic at least, and probably in the lower back to circa 60,000 bp.
[12:46] Corona Anatine: This took the form of shamanism/animism based upon natural experiences, drug use and ‘female’ magic, a related idea being clearly behind subincision/circumcision. [Knight C 1986 p16, Shuttle P and Redgrove P 1978 p67-68 7 73].
[12:46] Corona Anatine: [native australiains after performing subincision
[12:47] Corona Anatine: being known to hit the mangeld remains against their thigh declaring 'we have male menstraution
[12:47] Corona Anatine: The practitioners also apparently performing acts of initiation in the depths of caves.
[12:47] Corona Anatine: This then is the ultimate origin of ALL religions; drug and trance induced hallucinogenic fantasies and altered states and/or dreams. Even as late as around 2,000 BCE there were few religions of the sort we know today.
[12:47] Corona Anatine: All the main modern religions do however reveal extensive evidence of their origins in primitive shamanism.
[12:47] Corona Anatine: The bible in revelations and 1 Samuel 29:24. Islam in the descriptions of Mo’s revelations and trances.
[12:48] Corona Anatine: i sam = naked he was as the prophets of old
[12:48] Corona Anatine: not somethign often seen today in for example imamas and tV evangelists
[12:48] Corona Anatine: Islam in the descriptions of Mo’s revelations and trances.
Which include:
i) Voices heard in a trance state.
ii) The wearing of female [Aisha’s] garments by Mo to help induce the trance state.
[12:49] Corona Anatine: [Which in passing suggests the marriage to the 6 year old had a basis in her magico-religious value rather than sexual desire. Perhaps Aisha had some unrecorded visionary ability?]
[12:49] Corona Anatine: iii) The removal of Mo’s internal organs and their washing in special zamzam / holy water by the angel Gabriel [ a dream of Mo’s]
[12:49] Corona Anatine: A motive, which is extremely shamanic,
[12:49] Corona Anatine: as one of the frequent mentions is that shaman, would die for three or four days, during which their internal organs would be extracted by nature spirits and replaced with new magically improved versions.
[12:49] Corona Anatine: [ loads of literature on that aspect
[12:50] Corona Anatine: Other aspects of all the modern religions can be easily traced back to their origin in primitive superstition and animistic belief.
Perhaps something for another session.
[12:50] Corona Anatine: ok questions
[12:51] darcon Xue: encounters with gods (ancients) astronauts?
[12:51] Corona Anatine: this of course only touches the surface of much of this stuff
[12:51] Corona Anatine: ok
[12:51] Bryce Galbraith: Really interesting material! I also appreciate the visuals too...
[12:51] RobertDuke Drascol: Do you see the modern view of the immanence of God as similar in any way to notions of animism
[12:51] Corona Anatine: i see no evidence in the modern period for alien which has academic verification
[12:51] Chraeloos: Great job Corona!
[12:52] Corona Anatine: proving them in the remote past would be even more difficult
[12:52] Corona Anatine: not saying they could not be there
[12:52] Corona Anatine: but we have to work from what is known
[12:52] Corona Anatine: and
[12:52] Corona Anatine: an advanced civilization in the remote past is a degree more likely than aliens
[12:53] Chraeloos: Interesting point Corona, how advanced do you think they could be?
[12:53] Corona Anatine: which is what i feel is sufficient to account for the mystery material
[12:53] RF Axel: Is the Jungian Collective Unconsciousness relevant to the commonality of shamanic systems?
[12:53] Corona Anatine: perhaps 1950
[12:53] Corona Anatine: for several reasons
[12:53] Corona Anatine: one
[12:54] Corona Anatine: they have to have known of nukes to have been able to have a nuclear war - even on a small scale
[12:54] Corona Anatine: on the other hand
[12:54] Corona Anatine: not mor ethan 1950 ish
[12:54] Corona Anatine: so that advanced plastics were not developed
[12:55] Chraeloos: that's impressive. i can see that happening
[12:55] Corona Anatine: so i still think that the current levels are the highest known
[12:55] Chraeloos: Perhaps they would have matured technologically in different ways?
[12:55] Corona Anatine: yes
[12:55] Corona Anatine: we cant just take our civilization and drop it wholesale into the past
[12:56] Corona Anatine: they would have had their own way of approaching knowledge
[12:56] Corona Anatine: and the resultant technology would likely be different
[12:56] Corona Anatine: but
[12:56] Corona Anatine: if we took our current civ
[12:56] Corona Anatine: and removed everyone
[12:56] Corona Anatine: and went back farther 12000 years
[12:57] Corona Anatine: we would only see stone
[12:57] RF Axel: Alchemy as a route to nukes?
[12:57] Corona Anatine: yes quite possibly
[12:57] Corona Anatine: AL kemi anyway
[12:57] Corona Anatine: but that is a topic for a whole presentation
[12:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: That would be a great one, Corona
[12:57] Corona Anatine: as the chaion of inference is long and has many strands/threads
[12:58] Corona Anatine: and like much is only inferrable
[12:58] RF Axel: I liked the quote that distant archeologists would only find ceramic toilet bowls left from our civilization - and probably take them as objects of worship. :)
[12:58] Corona Anatine: but that is the nature of archaeology
[12:58] Corona Anatine: is possible
[12:58] Corona Anatine: however one would hoe they had access to residue analysis
[12:59] Corona Anatine: which might indicate there true use
[12:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: So did I hear you say, Corona, that the name of God "I am" means naked? Cool
[12:59] Corona Anatine: unless they saw defecation as a divine ritual
[12:59] Corona Anatine: 1 sam
[13:00] Corona Anatine: as in 1 samuel the book
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: 1 sam?
[13:00] Bryce Galbraith: So Corona, where besides Europe do we have cave art that survives from the upper paleolithic?
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, ok
[13:00] Bryce Galbraith: are there sites in parts of Asia, Africa?
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I lot of peopple in that book ened up in a cave area, drinking the water, stripping naked and prophesying
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: I hear that Evain wanted to market that water but was prevented by thegobernment
[13:00] Corona Anatine: i wil include the verse qoute in the refs for you rhi
[13:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Corona, thank you!
[13:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: I appreciate that
[13:01] Corona Anatine: cave art is mainly europe
[13:01] Corona Anatine: but also seen in the sahara
[13:01] Corona Anatine: and in australia
[13:01] Corona Anatine: however it was probably everywhere
[13:02] Corona Anatine: what we have is what has survived
[13:02] Chraeloos: that's the hour...
[13:02] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
If you want an invite to the group let me know :)
Thanks for coming everyone! Feel free to stick around and discuss, we're always open.
[13:02] Corona Anatine: mainly in deserts as there is no moisture to destroy the images
[13:02] Bryce Galbraith: Thanks Corona!
[13:02] Corona Anatine: which is why its mainly caves in europe
I left out all the discussion that occurred after the hour was up, even though it was really great. It will be in the transcript in-world, however, so if you want to read it go pick up the notecard (all the notecards can be found in the square world textured cube on top of the fireplace.
It was a great series, and I'm sorry to any who missed it. The last transcript can be found below:
[12:15] Corona Anatine: ok this week ui will hope to complete this set
[12:15] Corona Anatine: as i mentioned i will start back a short way
[12:16] Corona Anatine: D representative art
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Red ochre as mentioned was also used for cave surface decoration. Five main colours were available, as far as is known
Red [43.7%], black [48%], yellows /browns [5.3%] and white [rare]
Most cave art was single colour, and much is colourless incised lines.
Bi and polychrome only accounting for some 3% [Bahn P & Vertrut J 1988 p7.]
Because so many theories have been formulated concerning this art, all of which probably contain some element of the truth for some at least of the art, and because this activity spanned some 25,000 years starting circa 35k bp it is very unlikely that all of it represents ritual of a magico-religious purpose.
Certainly the earliest known in Europe [Chauvet in France of 35,000bp] is seen as purely decorative.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Studies of Australian ethnic art reinforces this idea
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Some of the painting being full of sacred power and dangerous to touch [Smith C E 1991 p46] or even for some groups [usually = other gender to artist] to see, [Smith C E 1991 p48] while other art was just for its own sake. [Ucko P J & Rosenfeld 1967 p160]
[12:17] Corona Anatine: 11% of Palaeolithic art seems to have a clear 'hunting magic' connection so can be quickly passed by, as being fairly straightforward of interpretation of meaning.
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Other art seems to have deeper and probably magical symbolism possibly connected with ancestors/shamans and/or shamanic style religions and initiation ceremonies.
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Several facets of the art suggest magical symbolism and function.
[12:18] Corona Anatine: i) The overlaying of images suggests it was the act of painting which was important, rather than the image itself [Ucko P J & Rosenfeld 1967 p135]
Palimpsesting occurring even when nearby surfaces were left untouched’ [Laming-Emperaire A 1962 p145] indicating that the shape of the surface also had significance. Some surfaces being part of the depiction where natural shapes in the rock are used for eyes etc
[12:18] Corona Anatine: ii) the use of rock surfaces that are difficult of access. [Clarke G & Piggot S 1965 p79] Some being made on surfaces that would have been deep within caves.
[12:18] Corona Anatine: iii) The fact that 'inner' cave sites rarely show evidence of frequent visits. [Richards G 1987 p229]
Although the exact relationship between a site and the distance from palaeo habitation is difficult to prove because of possible changes in the cave systems and its access points.
[12:19] Corona Anatine: 1] The occasional examples of possible ‘notational’ decoration
Bahn P & Vertut J [1988 p80 & 182], Marshack A [1991 p24]. Possibly relating to lunar symbolism. The phases of the moon probably being the principal means of time measurement then available, [or it could mean something totally different of course] or perhaps the numbers are just the result of chance. Moreover the mere fact of lunar phase recording does not automatically mean there is any magical connection. However the connection seems likely given the associations.
[12:19] Corona Anatine: 2] The Presence of geometric shapes and designs
There is a vast amount of this sort of art, possibly as important as representation of animals, possibly even more important. Bahn P & Vertut J [1988 p44], These images are strongly reminiscent of the phopshenes mentioned earlier. Such entoptic impressions are suggestive of use of hallucinogens or transcendent states of perception, ‘trances’ which are a strong component of shamanic tradition.
[12:20] Corona Anatine: Eliade M [1964
[12:20] Corona Anatine: Alternatively or additionally, ‘the motifs of the serpentine/zigzag and the spiral could represent the concept of flow and continuity…of time, blood or water.’ Marshack A [1991 p27], imagery of ‘female power yet again.
[12:20] Corona Anatine: Lewis-Williams D, [1993 p286-287] further points out,
[12:20] Corona Anatine: that with drug use or trance, the images take on a stereoscopic brilliance and depth. While in deeper trance the phosphenes can blend together to form images of animals and people etc, as is seen in the interblending of horse and phosphenes in Lascaux
[12:21] Corona Anatine: where they frong legs in the image sply out into phosphene dots
[12:22] Corona Anatine: as this example shows
[12:22] Corona Anatine: there are many similar
[12:22] Corona Anatine: Many cultures worldwide assisting trance states with vegetable materials. Stafford P [1992] and De Rios MD [1990].
In light of which it is interesting to note; “ excavations at Non Nok Tha in Thailand yielded in graves dated to 15,000 bce the remains of animal bones that appear to have had plant material repeatedly burned in their hollow centres”; McKenna T [1992 p151]
[12:23] Corona Anatine: [one of the few thigns Mc Kenna can be trusted on
[12:23] Corona Anatine: some of his writng being very strange to say the least
[12:24] Corona Anatine: 3] The predominance of horse and bison.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: These two species comprise 60% of animals seen in surface representations. Horses alone accounting for 25-30% of the art. However when it comes to actual faunal remains only 0.01% are horse. This shows that horse and bison are not what is being exploited as a food/use resource.
Therefore horses must signify something else. Attempts have been made to find locational and positional relationships within the cave art, [laming and Leroi-Gourhan]. But all failed, because too many exceptions to proposed systems were found.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: However a number of facts point towards a possible meaning. Which can ultimately only be speculative due to the nature of the material.
[12:24] Corona Anatine: i) There is long term continuity “ the only phenomena known which has such stability is religious symbolism” Richards G [1987 p300]
[12:24] Corona Anatine: ii) Laming's pairing of bison or horse with women/female.
[12:25] Corona Anatine: iii) The association of fired clay animals and female figurines at Dolni Vestonice. Both types being designed to explode when fired in a hearth.
[12:25] Corona Anatine: [possibly of divinatory purpose]
[12:25] Corona Anatine: iv) The crescentric figures variously labelled as ‘vulvas’ or horse hooves.
[12:25] Corona Anatine: Perhaps both being correct the double symbolism being intentional. In the cave of Commarque many appear opposite a huge carved horse
[Although a horse image carving near images of horse hoof prints is not too unlikely]
[12:26] Corona Anatine: v) Two engraved horseheads above an apparent birth image from the Magdalenian site of Gunnersdorf, “may represent a symbolic sacrifice or some other type of relation of the horse to human birth” Marshack A [1991 p27]
[12:26] Corona Anatine: this is the second image
[12:27] Corona Anatine: so the 'birth' depiction is only an interpretation - others are possible
[12:27] Corona Anatine: vi) The association of multiple barbed ‘arrows’ with women bison and horses whose derivation is possibly visible in Azilian pebble stylisation.
[12:27] Corona Anatine: vii) [Single barbed arrows on the other hand seem to be arrows for ‘hunting magic’]
[12:28] Corona Anatine: Because of the association birth= blood= death/rebirth, it follows that
[12:28] Corona Anatine: If the horse is [as seems likely/possible] associated with birth
[12:28] Corona Anatine: Then it follows that the horse is associated with death/rebirth, and furthermore with magic and the ancestors.
[12:28] Corona Anatine: two peices of information reinforce this
[12:29] Corona Anatine: i) The carving of the triple horse lifestyle baton
[12:30] Corona Anatine: This "baton" is of reindeer horn carved into the shapes of three horse heads – two live horses, either a mare and stallion or a colt and adult horse – and a flayed skull of a dead horse
[12:30] Corona Anatine: [flayed horses are a whole feild of cave art in themselves - which is too vast to more than hint at here
[12:31] Corona Anatine: ii) When burying their dead in caves floors, the people of the Magdalenian are likely to have often disturbed Solutrean levels. Occupation levels which comprised “ human remains mixed with mostly bones of wild horse intermingled with worked stone tools” Trinkaus E and Shipman P [1993 p107].
[12:31] Corona Anatine: Marshack A [1991 p27] further points out
[12:31] Corona Anatine: “…they suggest a complex symbolic and mythological semantic for the horse with a relation to the feminine occurring in different forms”; and “ the horse is often associated with water related images: the fish, the zigzag the snake and the stream, [all of which have female association/symbolism]
[12:31] Corona Anatine: Moreover the cave itself probably constituted a female/womb space. Maybe even ‘vagina dentata’ in its aspect of initiation/danger/chthonic spirits [Eliade M 1958a]
[12:32] Corona Anatine: Horses are further clearly distinguished from bison when the shape of the surface decorated is considered.
88.6% of horses being on concave surfaces, while 78.7% of bison and 82.6% of cattle occur on convex surfaces. Bahn P & Vertut J [1988 p176].
[12:32] Corona Anatine: These facts strongly suggest that the horse represents ‘feminine’ power and ancestor power, or perhaps simply ‘magic/power’. If so then logic would suggest that bison/bovines represent the opposites, of ‘masculine/mundane world’
[12:32] Corona Anatine: [Always assuming of course that the artists worked within such a mental/conceptual framework].
[12:33] Corona Anatine: 4] Female/venus figurines.
[12:33] Corona Anatine: These are well known enough to need little discussion, other than to mention
[12:33] Corona Anatine: and could supply a months worth of presentations at least
[12:33] Corona Anatine: i) Over 60 are known from across Europe [as of 1994 when this was written]
[12:33] Corona Anatine: ii) “ A universal religion based on a specific female ‘Goddess’, is unlikely in a society such as that of Palaeolithic Europe” Ehrenberg M [1989 p73]
[12:34] Corona Anatine: Certainly Goodison L & Morris C [1998] show that the whole concept was far more complex than to allow such a simplistic interpretation of a ‘universal mother goddess cult/religion.
[12:34] Corona Anatine: And “ small scale societies, such as [are presumed] to have likely existed then, typically focus on general spirits and forces rather than on personified individual deities, let alone priestesses with specialised task functions, which imply a political and social organisation far more complex than is likely to have existed” Ehrenberg M [1989 p74]
[12:34] Corona Anatine: A priest class was also unlikely before the rise of more complex societies, as a study of early literature such as the bible indicates there were two classes of individual concerned with supernatural entities.
[12:35] Corona Anatine: Shamans, who were those who had the dream/trance etc ability [however acquired or owned]
[12:35] Corona Anatine: and priests, who were more in the way of assistants to the shaman, being their to ensure the correct rituals etc were observed, lore keepers in a sense.
[12:35] Corona Anatine: A point highlighted by GE Swanson, who, in a statistical study, showed that there are positive statistical correlations between the social complexity of a culture and the nature of the entities in a cultures belief system. [Swanson GE 1966, p 96-7, 107, 120 & 178]
[12:36] Corona Anatine: iii) Many female figures display a ‘wrist ornament’ which Marshack suggests are illustrative of a garment worn of perishable material, although the zigzag pattern could also be symbolic
[12:36] Corona Anatine: iv) It is “probably suggestible that all images of the abstracted female torso symbolised the potential fertility” Marshack A [1991 p20]
[12:36] Corona Anatine: Which is fairly reasonable, although possibly as valid as saying that christianity was a death centred funerary cult by examination of its iconographic.
[12:37] Corona Anatine: In a similar way to Burgess describing Stonehenge as ‘a place of death’ because bodies were buried there.
The same is true of a modern christian church on that basis.
So female figures indicted female fertility does not get much further. In view of the rest of the earlier discussion further emphasis is likely redundant.
[12:37] Corona Anatine: 5] Non –female images
[12:37] Corona Anatine: These are of two sorts
[12:37] Corona Anatine: ‘dancing’ figures with horns,
[12:37] Corona Anatine: and the Lascaux shaft scene.
[12:38] Corona Anatine: Based upon the evidence given above it can be concluded that it shows a scene of symbolic magic.
[12:39] Corona Anatine: in my origina essay i put together an interpretaion of the scence which went into complex detail
[12:39] Corona Anatine: however
[12:39] Corona Anatine: yesterday [while looking for a shaft scene image to upload] I found this, which may indicate a cosmological aspect.
[12:39] Corona Anatine: http://www.artepreistorica.com/2009/12/palaeolithic-shamanistic-cosmography-how-is-the-famous-rock-picture-in-the-shaft-of-the-lascaux-grotto-to-be-decoded/
[12:40] Corona Anatine: Which relates the shaft scene to a constellation pattern
[I have not had time to read the article as yet so cannot comment further]
[12:40] Corona Anatine: but does match the idea behind a lot of other studies
[12:41] Corona Anatine: regardless - it does seem to have had some magic-religious meaning
[12:41] Corona Anatine: Other ‘shaman’ images are very doubtful as being shamans [with one exception] because of misinterpretation of palimpsested engraving [which I covered in an earlier presentation a few weeks ago]
[12:41] Corona Anatine: Even if it is generously accepted that some at least are shamans after all
[12:42] Corona Anatine: then another problem immediately arises,
[12:42] Corona Anatine: in that none of the images, even if of humans, score very well on the ‘five definitions of shamanism set by Glosecki
[12:42] Corona Anatine: , at least three of which are required for a system of beliefs to be classifiable as shamanism.
[12:42] Corona Anatine: The five indicators of shamanism being [full reference not supplied with source for this]
[12:42] Corona Anatine: 1 animism 2 healer 3 trance state 4 animal helper 5 initiation
In which the shaft scene gets 2.5 while all other images score 0
[12:42] Object whispers: sorry, you are not permitted to change fire settings
[12:43] Corona Anatine: This is less than promising as evidence that the images are actually ‘shamans’.
[12:43] Corona Anatine: This leaves circumstantial evidence, for which there are, three main threads:
[12:43] Corona Anatine: i) The similarity of ethnographic evidence for groups at a similar technological phase to that found in the early upper Palaeolithic.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: ii) Slight evidence of Palaeolithic drug use, involved in both shamanism and initiation.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: iii) The worldwide similarity of details of shamanic practice, which are even more unlikely to have such universal form as found ethnographically, purely from common perception/experiences.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: Therefore if not common experience, it must stem from common origin, and at an early enough period to permit the diffusion found.
[12:44] Corona Anatine: [ a copy of that phoot would be gratefully recived]
[12:45] Corona Anatine: A further indicator of possible initiation practices is the presence of Palaeolithic objects often coated, perhaps consecrated with red ochre. These are very similar to bullroarers used in initiation in many ethnic groups worldwide.
[12:45] Corona Anatine: Initiation in the Palaeolithic is also suggested by
[12:45] Corona Anatine: a) The footprints in cave, which are of a size belonging to younger individuals.
b) The frequent use of caves for initiation, found in many ethnographic accounts.
[12:45] Corona Anatine: In conclusion
[12:45] Corona Anatine: There is positive evidence for belief systems in the upper Palaeolithic at least, and probably in the lower back to circa 60,000 bp.
[12:46] Corona Anatine: This took the form of shamanism/animism based upon natural experiences, drug use and ‘female’ magic, a related idea being clearly behind subincision/circumcision. [Knight C 1986 p16, Shuttle P and Redgrove P 1978 p67-68 7 73].
[12:46] Corona Anatine: [native australiains after performing subincision
[12:47] Corona Anatine: being known to hit the mangeld remains against their thigh declaring 'we have male menstraution
[12:47] Corona Anatine: The practitioners also apparently performing acts of initiation in the depths of caves.
[12:47] Corona Anatine: This then is the ultimate origin of ALL religions; drug and trance induced hallucinogenic fantasies and altered states and/or dreams. Even as late as around 2,000 BCE there were few religions of the sort we know today.
[12:47] Corona Anatine: All the main modern religions do however reveal extensive evidence of their origins in primitive shamanism.
[12:47] Corona Anatine: The bible in revelations and 1 Samuel 29:24. Islam in the descriptions of Mo’s revelations and trances.
[12:48] Corona Anatine: i sam = naked he was as the prophets of old
[12:48] Corona Anatine: not somethign often seen today in for example imamas and tV evangelists
[12:48] Corona Anatine: Islam in the descriptions of Mo’s revelations and trances.
Which include:
i) Voices heard in a trance state.
ii) The wearing of female [Aisha’s] garments by Mo to help induce the trance state.
[12:49] Corona Anatine: [Which in passing suggests the marriage to the 6 year old had a basis in her magico-religious value rather than sexual desire. Perhaps Aisha had some unrecorded visionary ability?]
[12:49] Corona Anatine: iii) The removal of Mo’s internal organs and their washing in special zamzam / holy water by the angel Gabriel [ a dream of Mo’s]
[12:49] Corona Anatine: A motive, which is extremely shamanic,
[12:49] Corona Anatine: as one of the frequent mentions is that shaman, would die for three or four days, during which their internal organs would be extracted by nature spirits and replaced with new magically improved versions.
[12:49] Corona Anatine: [ loads of literature on that aspect
[12:50] Corona Anatine: Other aspects of all the modern religions can be easily traced back to their origin in primitive superstition and animistic belief.
Perhaps something for another session.
[12:50] Corona Anatine: ok questions
[12:51] darcon Xue: encounters with gods (ancients) astronauts?
[12:51] Corona Anatine: this of course only touches the surface of much of this stuff
[12:51] Corona Anatine: ok
[12:51] Bryce Galbraith: Really interesting material! I also appreciate the visuals too...
[12:51] RobertDuke Drascol: Do you see the modern view of the immanence of God as similar in any way to notions of animism
[12:51] Corona Anatine: i see no evidence in the modern period for alien which has academic verification
[12:51] Chraeloos: Great job Corona!
[12:52] Corona Anatine: proving them in the remote past would be even more difficult
[12:52] Corona Anatine: not saying they could not be there
[12:52] Corona Anatine: but we have to work from what is known
[12:52] Corona Anatine: and
[12:52] Corona Anatine: an advanced civilization in the remote past is a degree more likely than aliens
[12:53] Chraeloos: Interesting point Corona, how advanced do you think they could be?
[12:53] Corona Anatine: which is what i feel is sufficient to account for the mystery material
[12:53] RF Axel: Is the Jungian Collective Unconsciousness relevant to the commonality of shamanic systems?
[12:53] Corona Anatine: perhaps 1950
[12:53] Corona Anatine: for several reasons
[12:53] Corona Anatine: one
[12:54] Corona Anatine: they have to have known of nukes to have been able to have a nuclear war - even on a small scale
[12:54] Corona Anatine: on the other hand
[12:54] Corona Anatine: not mor ethan 1950 ish
[12:54] Corona Anatine: so that advanced plastics were not developed
[12:55] Chraeloos: that's impressive. i can see that happening
[12:55] Corona Anatine: so i still think that the current levels are the highest known
[12:55] Chraeloos: Perhaps they would have matured technologically in different ways?
[12:55] Corona Anatine: yes
[12:55] Corona Anatine: we cant just take our civilization and drop it wholesale into the past
[12:56] Corona Anatine: they would have had their own way of approaching knowledge
[12:56] Corona Anatine: and the resultant technology would likely be different
[12:56] Corona Anatine: but
[12:56] Corona Anatine: if we took our current civ
[12:56] Corona Anatine: and removed everyone
[12:56] Corona Anatine: and went back farther 12000 years
[12:57] Corona Anatine: we would only see stone
[12:57] RF Axel: Alchemy as a route to nukes?
[12:57] Corona Anatine: yes quite possibly
[12:57] Corona Anatine: AL kemi anyway
[12:57] Corona Anatine: but that is a topic for a whole presentation
[12:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: That would be a great one, Corona
[12:57] Corona Anatine: as the chaion of inference is long and has many strands/threads
[12:58] Corona Anatine: and like much is only inferrable
[12:58] RF Axel: I liked the quote that distant archeologists would only find ceramic toilet bowls left from our civilization - and probably take them as objects of worship. :)
[12:58] Corona Anatine: but that is the nature of archaeology
[12:58] Corona Anatine: is possible
[12:58] Corona Anatine: however one would hoe they had access to residue analysis
[12:59] Corona Anatine: which might indicate there true use
[12:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: So did I hear you say, Corona, that the name of God "I am" means naked? Cool
[12:59] Corona Anatine: unless they saw defecation as a divine ritual
[12:59] Corona Anatine: 1 sam
[13:00] Corona Anatine: as in 1 samuel the book
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: 1 sam?
[13:00] Bryce Galbraith: So Corona, where besides Europe do we have cave art that survives from the upper paleolithic?
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, ok
[13:00] Bryce Galbraith: are there sites in parts of Asia, Africa?
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I lot of peopple in that book ened up in a cave area, drinking the water, stripping naked and prophesying
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: I hear that Evain wanted to market that water but was prevented by thegobernment
[13:00] Corona Anatine: i wil include the verse qoute in the refs for you rhi
[13:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Corona, thank you!
[13:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: I appreciate that
[13:01] Corona Anatine: cave art is mainly europe
[13:01] Corona Anatine: but also seen in the sahara
[13:01] Corona Anatine: and in australia
[13:01] Corona Anatine: however it was probably everywhere
[13:02] Corona Anatine: what we have is what has survived
[13:02] Chraeloos: that's the hour...
[13:02] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
If you want an invite to the group let me know :)
Thanks for coming everyone! Feel free to stick around and discuss, we're always open.
[13:02] Corona Anatine: mainly in deserts as there is no moisture to destroy the images
[13:02] Bryce Galbraith: Thanks Corona!
[13:02] Corona Anatine: which is why its mainly caves in europe
Saturday, 18 February 2012
Corona Anatine Lecture Transcript Feb 12 2012
Below is a very late copy of the transcript from last Sunday's lecture. Thanks so, so much to Muse Starsmith for going through his chat history to find it! I owe you, Muse!
Corona Anatine: [these notes now have the refs added which i missed out last week - due to typing straight from notes instead of cut and paste - i wil do the same this week - refs will be added in the final notecard version
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: Red ochre therefore represented a common form of symbolic marking during the upper palaeolithic . [A Marshack 1991 p18] probably symbolism of blood/life /rebirth etc; attested by numerous ethnographic parallels. GH Luquet 1968 p171]
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: However this was not necessarily always the case as parallels also indicate uses in hide and skin working. [SA de Beaune 1992 p179], P Bahn and J Vertut 1988 p70], or for protection from insects and/or cold [J flood 1983 p171, P Bahn and J Vertut 1988]
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: Protection from insects or cold is however unlikely when artifacts were coated.
Though Marshack [1991] asks the question, “was it the colour or the overmarking which was meaningful, or both”
[02/12/2012 12:12 PM] Corona Anatine: In these situations the life symbolism was probably the main point; the act of coating or its presence imparting life or fertility magic to the object, consecrating it and imparting a ‘spirit’ which gave it life.
[02/12/2012 12:13 PM] Corona Anatine: The fertility association occurring in Australia where it was related to Brimorer, the rainbow snake, CE Smith 1991 p47, J Flood 1983 p46] This association with blood is however likely to derive from commonality of experience.
[02/12/2012 12:13 PM] Corona Anatine: One possibly being the rainbow serpent, which is also found in Africa with a similar connection with rainwater, the moon, fertility and by default therefore women.
[02/12/2012 12:14 PM] Corona Anatine: However this again merely illustrates the worldwide symbolic connections based on commonality of female experience. The connection being made abuandantly clear by Eliade 1958a and Shuttle and Redgrove 1978.
[02/12/2012 12:14 PM] Corona Anatine: This also means there is a strong case for thinking that palaeolithic women shared these natural experiences, made similar connections and gave red ochre very similar symbolic associations.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: Unless it alternatively indicates a level of contact or cultural transfer in pre history.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: This has three consequences
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: i) images of water, the moon etc should be present in the palaeolithic, and where found have an association with the ‘female’ sphere.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: ii) The fertility power of women had importance for objects found in association or relationship with red ochre
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: iii) Women [as a gender] may have held positions of power, eg they were practitioners of magic
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: Although C Power does illustrate that among the Kung! there is evidence for social mutability of gender.
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: ! shoukld be inverted but my pc keybopard has no such key
[02/12/2012 12:17 PM] Corona Anatine: The ethnographic parallels extensively cited by Frazer reinforce this conclusion, Frazer showing that women just by virtue of existing had dangerous ‘spirit’ power; equivalent to the most powerful chiefs and magicians. Menstrual blood with all its fertility and other associations being magical blood .
[02/12/2012 12:17 PM] Corona Anatine: Rock art and artefacts from a number of sources make clear the association
Menstrual blood= snake= water= coil /spiral= women/female
[02/12/2012 12:18 PM] Corona Anatine: the association possibly being the maening of cup and ring markings - but that would be impossible to prove
[02/12/2012 12:20 PM] Corona Anatine: The connection again possibly being seen in the genesis myth, as the elements are all present
A human made of ‘red earth = ochre, female ‘mother of all [ possilbly the egyptian goddess Hapthor, and a snake which communicates to human
[02/12/2012 12:21 PM] Corona Anatine: the menstual/fertility symbolism being traceable morevoer from the palaeoloithic right through to the historic period in eurpean art and literature
[02/12/2012 12:22 PM] Corona Anatine: [ i will have to add some images here on the fianl notecard as web links
[02/12/2012 12:24 PM] Corona Anatine: the connection with European palaeolithic art being seen at Abri Pataud where "a large limestone block, touched with red and black paint is topped with the incised and carved image of a vulva, from which descends a serpentine figure carved in 8 cumulative sections
[02/12/2012 12:26 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly also related to this theme are some of the scenes n the golden horn from Gallehus
[02/12/2012 12:26 PM] Corona Anatine: [unlcear what my notes mean here so i will type them sic]
[02/12/2012 12:27 PM] Corona Anatine: showing snake , water horeshoe fish coil and horse synbolism [inter alia]
[02/12/2012 12:27 PM] Corona Anatine: the significance of horse symbolism will be shown in due course
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: ok that was 'c'
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: D representative art
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: Red ochre as mentyioned was also used for cave surface decoration
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: five main colours were available as far as is known
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: red [43.7% ]
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: black [48%]
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: yellows /browns [5.3% ] and
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: white [rare]
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: most cave art was songle colour
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: bi and polychrome only accounting for some 3%
[02/12/2012 12:31 PM] Corona Anatine: because so many theories have been fomulatedconcerning this art
[02/12/2012 12:31 PM] Corona Anatine: all of which probably contain some element of the truth for some at least of the art
[02/12/2012 12:32 PM] Corona Anatine: and because this activity spanned some 25,000 years starting circa 35k bp
[02/12/2012 12:32 PM] Corona Anatine: it is very unlikley that all of it represents ritual of a magico-religious purpose
[02/12/2012 12:33 PM] Corona Anatine: studies of Australian ethnic art reinforces this idea
[02/12/2012 12:34 PM] Corona Anatine: Some of the painting being full of sacred power and dangerous to touch or even for soem groups [ other gender to artist] to see
[02/12/2012 12:34 PM] Corona Anatine: while other art was just for its won sake
[02/12/2012 12:35 PM] Corona Anatine: 11% of palaeolithic art seems to have a clear 'hunting magic' connection
[02/12/2012 12:35 PM] Corona Anatine: so can be quickly passed by
[02/12/2012 12:36 PM] Corona Anatine: Other art seems to have deeper and probably magical symbolism
[02/12/2012 12:36 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly connected with ancestors/shamen
[02/12/2012 12:37 PM] Corona Anatine: and/or shamanic style religions and initiation ceremonies
[02/12/2012 12:37 PM] Corona Anatine: several facets of the art suggest magical symbolism and function.
[02/12/2012 12:38 PM] Corona Anatine: i) the overlaying of images suggests it was the act of paintin g which was important, rather than the image itself
[02/12/2012 12:39 PM] Corona Anatine: Palimpsesting occurring even when nearby surfaces were left untouched
[02/12/2012 12:39 PM] Corona Anatine: indicating that the shape of the surface also had siginificance
[02/12/2012 12:40 PM] Corona Anatine: soem surfaces ebing part of the depiction where natural shaopes in the rock are used for eyes etc
[02/12/2012 12:40 PM] Corona Anatine: ii) the use of rock surfaces that are difficult of access
[02/12/2012 12:41 PM] Corona Anatine: soem being made on surfaces tat would have been deep withoin caves
[02/12/2012 12:41 PM] Corona Anatine: iii) the fact that 'inner' cave sites rarely show evidence of frequnet visits
[02/12/2012 12:42 PM] Corona Anatine: although the exact relationship between a site and the distance from paleo habitation is difficult to prove because of possible changes in the cave systems and its access points
[02/12/2012 12:43 PM] Corona Anatine: 1 the occasional examples of possible 'notational ' decoration
[02/12/2012 12:43 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly relating to lunar symbolism
[02/12/2012 12:44 PM] Corona Anatine: the phases of the moon probably being the principal means of tiem measurement then availble
[02/12/2012 12:44 PM] Corona Anatine: [ or it could mean something totally different of course]
[02/12/2012 12:45 PM] Corona Anatine: or perhaps the numbers are just the result of chance
[02/12/2012 12:45 PM] Corona Anatine: and the mere fact of lunar phase recording does not automatically mean there is any magical connection
[02/12/2012 12:46 PM] Corona Anatine: however the connection seems likley given its assocaitions
[02/12/2012 12:46 PM] Corona Anatine: 2 the presence of geometric shapes and designs
[02/12/2012 12:47 PM] Corona Anatine: there is a vast amount of this sort of art Possibly as important as the images of animals etc
[02/12/2012 12:47 PM] Corona Anatine: or perhaps it was even more important
[02/12/2012 12:48 PM] Corona Anatine: there images are strongly reminiscent of phospenes
[02/12/2012 12:48 PM] Corona Anatine: such Entoptic impressions are sugestive of the use of hallucinogens
[02/12/2012 12:49 PM] Corona Anatine: and i will stop there as a good plave to break
Corona Anatine: [these notes now have the refs added which i missed out last week - due to typing straight from notes instead of cut and paste - i wil do the same this week - refs will be added in the final notecard version
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: Red ochre therefore represented a common form of symbolic marking during the upper palaeolithic . [A Marshack 1991 p18] probably symbolism of blood/life /rebirth etc; attested by numerous ethnographic parallels. GH Luquet 1968 p171]
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: However this was not necessarily always the case as parallels also indicate uses in hide and skin working. [SA de Beaune 1992 p179], P Bahn and J Vertut 1988 p70], or for protection from insects and/or cold [J flood 1983 p171, P Bahn and J Vertut 1988]
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: Protection from insects or cold is however unlikely when artifacts were coated.
Though Marshack [1991] asks the question, “was it the colour or the overmarking which was meaningful, or both”
[02/12/2012 12:12 PM] Corona Anatine: In these situations the life symbolism was probably the main point; the act of coating or its presence imparting life or fertility magic to the object, consecrating it and imparting a ‘spirit’ which gave it life.
[02/12/2012 12:13 PM] Corona Anatine: The fertility association occurring in Australia where it was related to Brimorer, the rainbow snake, CE Smith 1991 p47, J Flood 1983 p46] This association with blood is however likely to derive from commonality of experience.
[02/12/2012 12:13 PM] Corona Anatine: One possibly being the rainbow serpent, which is also found in Africa with a similar connection with rainwater, the moon, fertility and by default therefore women.
[02/12/2012 12:14 PM] Corona Anatine: However this again merely illustrates the worldwide symbolic connections based on commonality of female experience. The connection being made abuandantly clear by Eliade 1958a and Shuttle and Redgrove 1978.
[02/12/2012 12:14 PM] Corona Anatine: This also means there is a strong case for thinking that palaeolithic women shared these natural experiences, made similar connections and gave red ochre very similar symbolic associations.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: Unless it alternatively indicates a level of contact or cultural transfer in pre history.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: This has three consequences
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: i) images of water, the moon etc should be present in the palaeolithic, and where found have an association with the ‘female’ sphere.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: ii) The fertility power of women had importance for objects found in association or relationship with red ochre
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: iii) Women [as a gender] may have held positions of power, eg they were practitioners of magic
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: Although C Power does illustrate that among the Kung! there is evidence for social mutability of gender.
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: ! shoukld be inverted but my pc keybopard has no such key
[02/12/2012 12:17 PM] Corona Anatine: The ethnographic parallels extensively cited by Frazer reinforce this conclusion, Frazer showing that women just by virtue of existing had dangerous ‘spirit’ power; equivalent to the most powerful chiefs and magicians. Menstrual blood with all its fertility and other associations being magical blood .
[02/12/2012 12:17 PM] Corona Anatine: Rock art and artefacts from a number of sources make clear the association
Menstrual blood= snake= water= coil /spiral= women/female
[02/12/2012 12:18 PM] Corona Anatine: the association possibly being the maening of cup and ring markings - but that would be impossible to prove
[02/12/2012 12:20 PM] Corona Anatine: The connection again possibly being seen in the genesis myth, as the elements are all present
A human made of ‘red earth = ochre, female ‘mother of all [ possilbly the egyptian goddess Hapthor, and a snake which communicates to human
[02/12/2012 12:21 PM] Corona Anatine: the menstual/fertility symbolism being traceable morevoer from the palaeoloithic right through to the historic period in eurpean art and literature
[02/12/2012 12:22 PM] Corona Anatine: [ i will have to add some images here on the fianl notecard as web links
[02/12/2012 12:24 PM] Corona Anatine: the connection with European palaeolithic art being seen at Abri Pataud where "a large limestone block, touched with red and black paint is topped with the incised and carved image of a vulva, from which descends a serpentine figure carved in 8 cumulative sections
[02/12/2012 12:26 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly also related to this theme are some of the scenes n the golden horn from Gallehus
[02/12/2012 12:26 PM] Corona Anatine: [unlcear what my notes mean here so i will type them sic]
[02/12/2012 12:27 PM] Corona Anatine: showing snake , water horeshoe fish coil and horse synbolism [inter alia]
[02/12/2012 12:27 PM] Corona Anatine: the significance of horse symbolism will be shown in due course
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: ok that was 'c'
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: D representative art
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: Red ochre as mentyioned was also used for cave surface decoration
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: five main colours were available as far as is known
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: red [43.7% ]
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: black [48%]
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: yellows /browns [5.3% ] and
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: white [rare]
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: most cave art was songle colour
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: bi and polychrome only accounting for some 3%
[02/12/2012 12:31 PM] Corona Anatine: because so many theories have been fomulatedconcerning this art
[02/12/2012 12:31 PM] Corona Anatine: all of which probably contain some element of the truth for some at least of the art
[02/12/2012 12:32 PM] Corona Anatine: and because this activity spanned some 25,000 years starting circa 35k bp
[02/12/2012 12:32 PM] Corona Anatine: it is very unlikley that all of it represents ritual of a magico-religious purpose
[02/12/2012 12:33 PM] Corona Anatine: studies of Australian ethnic art reinforces this idea
[02/12/2012 12:34 PM] Corona Anatine: Some of the painting being full of sacred power and dangerous to touch or even for soem groups [ other gender to artist] to see
[02/12/2012 12:34 PM] Corona Anatine: while other art was just for its won sake
[02/12/2012 12:35 PM] Corona Anatine: 11% of palaeolithic art seems to have a clear 'hunting magic' connection
[02/12/2012 12:35 PM] Corona Anatine: so can be quickly passed by
[02/12/2012 12:36 PM] Corona Anatine: Other art seems to have deeper and probably magical symbolism
[02/12/2012 12:36 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly connected with ancestors/shamen
[02/12/2012 12:37 PM] Corona Anatine: and/or shamanic style religions and initiation ceremonies
[02/12/2012 12:37 PM] Corona Anatine: several facets of the art suggest magical symbolism and function.
[02/12/2012 12:38 PM] Corona Anatine: i) the overlaying of images suggests it was the act of paintin g which was important, rather than the image itself
[02/12/2012 12:39 PM] Corona Anatine: Palimpsesting occurring even when nearby surfaces were left untouched
[02/12/2012 12:39 PM] Corona Anatine: indicating that the shape of the surface also had siginificance
[02/12/2012 12:40 PM] Corona Anatine: soem surfaces ebing part of the depiction where natural shaopes in the rock are used for eyes etc
[02/12/2012 12:40 PM] Corona Anatine: ii) the use of rock surfaces that are difficult of access
[02/12/2012 12:41 PM] Corona Anatine: soem being made on surfaces tat would have been deep withoin caves
[02/12/2012 12:41 PM] Corona Anatine: iii) the fact that 'inner' cave sites rarely show evidence of frequnet visits
[02/12/2012 12:42 PM] Corona Anatine: although the exact relationship between a site and the distance from paleo habitation is difficult to prove because of possible changes in the cave systems and its access points
[02/12/2012 12:43 PM] Corona Anatine: 1 the occasional examples of possible 'notational ' decoration
[02/12/2012 12:43 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly relating to lunar symbolism
[02/12/2012 12:44 PM] Corona Anatine: the phases of the moon probably being the principal means of tiem measurement then availble
[02/12/2012 12:44 PM] Corona Anatine: [ or it could mean something totally different of course]
[02/12/2012 12:45 PM] Corona Anatine: or perhaps the numbers are just the result of chance
[02/12/2012 12:45 PM] Corona Anatine: and the mere fact of lunar phase recording does not automatically mean there is any magical connection
[02/12/2012 12:46 PM] Corona Anatine: however the connection seems likley given its assocaitions
[02/12/2012 12:46 PM] Corona Anatine: 2 the presence of geometric shapes and designs
[02/12/2012 12:47 PM] Corona Anatine: there is a vast amount of this sort of art Possibly as important as the images of animals etc
[02/12/2012 12:47 PM] Corona Anatine: or perhaps it was even more important
[02/12/2012 12:48 PM] Corona Anatine: there images are strongly reminiscent of phospenes
[02/12/2012 12:48 PM] Corona Anatine: such Entoptic impressions are sugestive of the use of hallucinogens
[02/12/2012 12:49 PM] Corona Anatine: and i will stop there as a good plave to break
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