Epithet and Synonym Literary Co. Blog

2012-02-18T16:25:00.001-08:00

Below is a very late copy of the transcript from last Sunday's lecture. Thanks so, so much to Muse Starsmith for going through his chat history to find it! I owe you, Muse!

Corona Anatine: [these notes now have the refs added which i missed out last week - due to typing straight from notes instead of cut and paste - i wil do the same this week - refs will be added in the final notecard version
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: Red ochre therefore represented a common form of symbolic marking during the upper palaeolithic . [A Marshack 1991 p18] probably symbolism of blood/life /rebirth etc; attested by numerous ethnographic parallels. GH Luquet 1968 p171]
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: However this was not necessarily always the case as parallels also indicate uses in hide and skin working. [SA de Beaune 1992 p179], P Bahn and J Vertut 1988 p70], or for protection from insects and/or cold [J flood 1983 p171, P Bahn and J Vertut 1988]
[02/12/2012 12:11 PM] Corona Anatine: Protection from insects or cold is however unlikely when artifacts were coated.
Though Marshack [1991] asks the question, “was it the colour or the overmarking which was meaningful, or both”
[02/12/2012 12:12 PM] Corona Anatine: In these situations the life symbolism was probably the main point; the act of coating or its presence imparting life or fertility magic to the object, consecrating it and imparting a ‘spirit’ which gave it life.
[02/12/2012 12:13 PM] Corona Anatine: The fertility association occurring in Australia where it was related to Brimorer, the rainbow snake, CE Smith 1991 p47, J Flood 1983 p46] This association with blood is however likely to derive from commonality of experience.
[02/12/2012 12:13 PM] Corona Anatine: One possibly being the rainbow serpent, which is also found in Africa with a similar connection with rainwater, the moon, fertility and by default therefore women.
[02/12/2012 12:14 PM] Corona Anatine: However this again merely illustrates the worldwide symbolic connections based on commonality of female experience. The connection being made abuandantly clear by Eliade 1958a and Shuttle and Redgrove 1978.
[02/12/2012 12:14 PM] Corona Anatine: This also means there is a strong case for thinking that palaeolithic women shared these natural experiences, made similar connections and gave red ochre very similar symbolic associations.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: Unless it alternatively indicates a level of contact or cultural transfer in pre history.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: This has three consequences
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: i) images of water, the moon etc should be present in the palaeolithic, and where found have an association with the ‘female’ sphere.
[02/12/2012 12:15 PM] Corona Anatine: ii) The fertility power of women had importance for objects found in association or relationship with red ochre
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: iii) Women [as a gender] may have held positions of power, eg they were practitioners of magic
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: Although C Power does illustrate that among the Kung! there is evidence for social mutability of gender.
[02/12/2012 12:16 PM] Corona Anatine: ! shoukld be inverted but my pc keybopard has no such key
[02/12/2012 12:17 PM] Corona Anatine: The ethnographic parallels extensively cited by Frazer reinforce this conclusion, Frazer showing that women just by virtue of existing had dangerous ‘spirit’ power; equivalent to the most powerful chiefs and magicians. Menstrual blood with all its fertility and other associations being magical blood .
[02/12/2012 12:17 PM] Corona Anatine: Rock art and artefacts from a number of sources make clear the association
Menstrual blood= snake= water= coil /spiral= women/female
[02/12/2012 12:18 PM] Corona Anatine: the association possibly being the maening of cup and ring markings - but that would be impossible to prove
[02/12/2012 12:20 PM] Corona Anatine: The connection again possibly being seen in the genesis myth, as the elements are all present
A human made of ‘red earth = ochre, female ‘mother of all [ possilbly the egyptian goddess Hapthor, and a snake which communicates to human
[02/12/2012 12:21 PM] Corona Anatine: the menstual/fertility symbolism being traceable morevoer from the palaeoloithic right through to the historic period in eurpean art and literature
[02/12/2012 12:22 PM] Corona Anatine: [ i will have to add some images here on the fianl notecard as web links
[02/12/2012 12:24 PM] Corona Anatine: the connection with European palaeolithic art being seen at Abri Pataud where "a large limestone block, touched with red and black paint is topped with the incised and carved image of a vulva, from which descends a serpentine figure carved in 8 cumulative sections
[02/12/2012 12:26 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly also related to this theme are some of the scenes n the golden horn from Gallehus
[02/12/2012 12:26 PM] Corona Anatine: [unlcear what my notes mean here so i will type them sic]
[02/12/2012 12:27 PM] Corona Anatine: showing snake , water horeshoe fish coil and horse synbolism [inter alia]
[02/12/2012 12:27 PM] Corona Anatine: the significance of horse symbolism will be shown in due course
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: ok that was 'c'
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: D representative art
[02/12/2012 12:28 PM] Corona Anatine: Red ochre as mentyioned was also used for cave surface decoration
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: five main colours were available as far as is known
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: red [43.7% ]
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: black [48%]
[02/12/2012 12:29 PM] Corona Anatine: yellows /browns [5.3% ] and
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: white [rare]
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: most cave art was songle colour
[02/12/2012 12:30 PM] Corona Anatine: bi and polychrome only accounting for some 3%
[02/12/2012 12:31 PM] Corona Anatine: because so many theories have been fomulatedconcerning this art
[02/12/2012 12:31 PM] Corona Anatine: all of which probably contain some element of the truth for some at least of the art
[02/12/2012 12:32 PM] Corona Anatine: and because this activity spanned some 25,000 years starting circa 35k bp
[02/12/2012 12:32 PM] Corona Anatine: it is very unlikley that all of it represents ritual of a magico-religious purpose
[02/12/2012 12:33 PM] Corona Anatine: studies of Australian ethnic art reinforces this idea
[02/12/2012 12:34 PM] Corona Anatine: Some of the painting being full of sacred power and dangerous to touch or even for soem groups [ other gender to artist] to see
[02/12/2012 12:34 PM] Corona Anatine: while other art was just for its won sake
[02/12/2012 12:35 PM] Corona Anatine: 11% of palaeolithic art seems to have a clear 'hunting magic' connection
[02/12/2012 12:35 PM] Corona Anatine: so can be quickly passed by
[02/12/2012 12:36 PM] Corona Anatine: Other art seems to have deeper and probably magical symbolism
[02/12/2012 12:36 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly connected with ancestors/shamen
[02/12/2012 12:37 PM] Corona Anatine: and/or shamanic style religions and initiation ceremonies
[02/12/2012 12:37 PM] Corona Anatine: several facets of the art suggest magical symbolism and function.
[02/12/2012 12:38 PM] Corona Anatine: i) the overlaying of images suggests it was the act of paintin g which was important, rather than the image itself
[02/12/2012 12:39 PM] Corona Anatine: Palimpsesting occurring even when nearby surfaces were left untouched
[02/12/2012 12:39 PM] Corona Anatine: indicating that the shape of the surface also had siginificance
[02/12/2012 12:40 PM] Corona Anatine: soem surfaces ebing part of the depiction where natural shaopes in the rock are used for eyes etc
[02/12/2012 12:40 PM] Corona Anatine: ii) the use of rock surfaces that are difficult of access
[02/12/2012 12:41 PM] Corona Anatine: soem being made on surfaces tat would have been deep withoin caves
[02/12/2012 12:41 PM] Corona Anatine: iii) the fact that 'inner' cave sites rarely show evidence of frequnet visits
[02/12/2012 12:42 PM] Corona Anatine: although the exact relationship between a site and the distance from paleo habitation is difficult to prove because of possible changes in the cave systems and its access points
[02/12/2012 12:43 PM] Corona Anatine: 1 the occasional examples of possible 'notational ' decoration
[02/12/2012 12:43 PM] Corona Anatine: possibly relating to lunar symbolism
[02/12/2012 12:44 PM] Corona Anatine: the phases of the moon probably being the principal means of tiem measurement then availble
[02/12/2012 12:44 PM] Corona Anatine: [ or it could mean something totally different of course]
[02/12/2012 12:45 PM] Corona Anatine: or perhaps the numbers are just the result of chance
[02/12/2012 12:45 PM] Corona Anatine: and the mere fact of lunar phase recording does not automatically mean there is any magical connection
[02/12/2012 12:46 PM] Corona Anatine: however the connection seems likley given its assocaitions
[02/12/2012 12:46 PM] Corona Anatine: 2 the presence of geometric shapes and designs
[02/12/2012 12:47 PM] Corona Anatine: there is a vast amount of this sort of art Possibly as important as the images of animals etc
[02/12/2012 12:47 PM] Corona Anatine: or perhaps it was even more important
[02/12/2012 12:48 PM] Corona Anatine: there images are strongly reminiscent of phospenes
[02/12/2012 12:48 PM] Corona Anatine: such Entoptic impressions are sugestive of the use of hallucinogens
[02/12/2012 12:49 PM] Corona Anatine: and i will stop there as a good plave to break

Intro Notes for Tues Feb 21 2012

2012-02-18T14:59:00.000-08:00

Topic: Avicenna on life-forms and the universe

Quotes taken from "Philosophy" by Stephen Law.

Avicenna (Ibn Sina) is a scientist and astronomer from Persia in 980-1037. He's best known for his "Cannon of Medicine".

He supported the cosmological argument for God's existence known as the "Kalam argument".

This argument "begins from the observation, gained from al-Farabi, that all things in the universe are possible beings, meaning that they might not have existed and have no inherent reason for existing."

"The "essence" of such beings is said to be distinct from their "existence," so the fact that they exist is not determined by what they are."

"Therefore they must depend on something else for their existence, and must be caused to exist by something else."

"However, this cannot be true of everything that exists, otherwise there would be an infinite regress and no ultimate ground for the existence of anything."

"It follows that there must be a being whose existence is necessary, which is its own cause and sustains everything else in existence."

Avicenna thought that being was Allah.

Avicenna follows the same idea as the Neo-platonists, in that all being emanates from God as its sustaining cause."

"This implies that events and actions are predetermined, thus problematizing ideas of moral responsibility and divine justice."

This isn't intended to be a conversation about God, Gods, or any being as such. If possible, I'd like to replace the idea of God as whatever you want it to be.

A force, an energy, or even God if you'd prefer. View it how you like. However, I'd like to focus on the rest of the premises Avicenna comes to a conclusion about.

What do you think? I open the floor.

New Event Hosted by Rhiannon and Chraeloos

2012-02-16T16:10:00.000-08:00

NEW WEEKLY EVENT - Starting Thurs. 2/23 4pmSLT

Hosted by Rhiannon and Chraeloos @ E&S

Ever wanted to step into someone else's shoes? Next thursday, come as your favorite philosophy or science figure and discuss induction.

BY REGISTRATION ONLY! IM Rhiannon or Chraeloos with your name and who you want to be. Limited to 15 attendees per session. First come first serve! If you don't make it the first week, we'll bump you to the second, so don't worry, you'll have your chance to be involved.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Pangea/36/43/26

Intro Notes for Tues Feb 7 10amSLT

2012-02-05T16:01:00.000-08:00

Topic: Hume, Copy Principle, and Causation

All quotations in these notes are from unless otherwise stated.

Dictionary.com: Causation
1.the action of causing or producing.
2.the relation of cause to effect; causality.
3.anything that produces an effect; cause.

Causation is "the belief that events occur in predictable ways and that one event leads to another. If the relationship between the variables is non-spurious (there is not a third variable causing the effect), the temporal order is in line (cause before effect), and the study is longitudinal, it may be deduced that it is a causal relationship." (Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causation_(sociology))

"Deep understanding of causality sometimes requires understanding of very large patterns and their abstract relationships and interactions, not just the understanding of microscopic objects interacting in microscopic time intervals." -I Am A Strange Loop, Douglas Hofstadter, pg. 41

"… Hume shows that experience does not tell us much. Of two events, A and B, we say that A causes B when the two always occur together, that is, are constantly conjoined. Whenever we find A, we also find B, and we have a certainty that this conjunction will continue to happen. Once we realize that “A must bring about B” is tantamount merely to “Due to their constant conjunction, we are psychologically certain that B will follow A”, then we are left with a very weak notion of necessity."

"[Causation] alone allows us to go beyond what is immediately present to the senses and, along with perception and memory, is responsible for all our knowledge of the world."

"Hume’s Copy Principle … states that all our ideas are products of impressions."

Hume separates all "possible objects of knowledge into relations of ideas and matters of fact. Hume gives several differentiae distinguishing the two, but the principal distinction is that the denial of a true relation of ideas implies a contradiction. Relations of ideas can also be known independently of experience. Matters of fact, however, can be denied coherently, and they cannot be known independently of experience."

Hume's theories have been prevalent throughout societies history. Do you believe that no act or thought can be independent? Is it true that every thought has been thought before and that every act is reliant on the past? To admit that would essentially be admitting that none of us are truly individual, would it not? What about creativity and creation?Wouldn't believing that everything is not unique imply that no patents are valid, that no copyright exists, and that no ownership applies?

I open the floor.

Come join the discussion at our Second Life cafe: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Pangea/36/43/26

Corona Anatine Lecture Feb 5 2012 Review

2012-02-05T13:34:00.000-08:00

Today’s lecture went unexpectedly well. There were some technical issues on Corona’s part but she managed to get online and save the lecture in five minutes, so good for her. It ended up going as planned as part two of the invention and evolution of magic and religion. I’m really enjoying the diversity of people we get at these lectures – people from all over the world in all sorts of backgrounds and faiths. It always makes for a very interesting discussion afterwards. And so far all comments have been cordial and constructive, instead of harassing and demeaning. Especially on a topic as controversial as this, I’ve been very impressed. Thanks everyone for making this so much fun and so worth it!

A dozen people came to the lecture today, even with all the technical difficulties. Some new faces came as well – nice to meet you and thanks for coming!

Transcript below:

[12:08] Corona Anatine: ok last time in part 1 i looked at some aspects of the origins of religion and magic
[12:08] Corona Anatine: this week i will continue where i left off
[12:08] Evie: in voice or text ?
[12:08] Chraeloos: text
[12:08] Evie: ok
[12:09] Corona Anatine: Examination of the Palaeolithic archaeological material evidence.
Examination shows that the earliest signs of expressive, possibly ritual activity occurs at circa 200,000 to 300,000 bp, with the use of ochre pigment at Terra Amata, and the engraved ox rib from Peche de L’Aze.
The main expansion however, occurs at the beginning of the Aurignacian period, simultaneously across large parts of Europe. This seems to have been a cultural phenomena however, rather than a biological or neurological one. [R White 1992 pg 74]
[12:10] Corona Anatine: The surviving material suggests a number of elements possibly reflecting traces of Palaeolithic ritual activities:
[12:10] Corona Anatine: a) Burial and treatment of human remains
b) Use and repositioning of non human skeletal elements.
c) Pigmentation of materials with red ochre.
[possibly of related significance to the fact that ‘Adam’ in hebrew means ‘red earth or clay’]
[12:10] Corona Anatine: d) Pictorial representation both parietal and mobiliarly, of several classes
i) Possible notational decoration.
ii) Geometric shapes and designs
iii) Dominance of horse and bison in cave art.
iv) ‘Venus’ images of female shape
v) Athropomorths. – ‘Shamen’ figures
Plus one or two other things in passing.
Each section will both examine the evidence and compare it with ethnographic parallels and possible continuity, in order to collect the materials adjacently.
[12:10] Corona Anatine: [some of this is a repeat
[12:11] Corona Anatine: but it ties in better this way]
[12:11] Corona Anatine: a) Burial and treatment of remains.
[12:11] Corona Anatine: A few other species of higher mammals “show grief and some degree of concern for their recently dead, but ritual burials seem unique to humanity” [G Richards 1987 p285]
Presumably the earliest hominids had a similar grief and concern. However the earliest known intentional burials are of Mousterian Neanderthals.
However the earliest burials were not necessarily by Neanderthals as the oldest known is the group burial of La Ferrasie [100 ka bp ] This burial lies at the very start of the period when early modern humans appear. But it does seem probable both because of the latitude, and the apparent lack of mixed race burials.
[12:12] Corona Anatine: There are not that many extant burials however and humans of either group might have avoided mixing their dead with those of another group, whether of the same race or not.
Examination of the list of known burials shows that the main features of upper Palaeolithic burial are
i) Frequent coverage of the body with red ochre. In some cases directly onto bone, indicating burial of fleshless or deliberately de-fleshed bone. Red ochre coverage becomes even more frequent as the Palaeolithic advances, suggesting the slow establishment of a ritual tradition
However 100% coverage of burials is never reached, some burials never warranting red ochre coverage for some reason. Perhaps as simple as lack of the material or variation in micro-local traditions.
ii) Orientation of the body. In the earlier Mousterian there is no preference for body orientation towards any compass direction. By the upper Palaeolithic in contrast there is an immediate and definite orientation of bodies with their head to the north or along
[12:12] Corona Anatine: a north-south axis. This is certainly deliberate and very probably ritual. There being no sanitary reason required beyond mere burial.
[12:12] Corona Anatine: North = 41
NE = 2
East = 0
SE = 0
South = 5
SW = 1
West = 1
NW = 5

This shows a remarkably consistent practice through time, and across a broad geographic range
[12:12] Corona Anatine: [ this is where i ended last week
[12:12] Corona Anatine: Based on this sample there would also appear to be an association of the south with younger and the north with older individuals. All children also being on the N-S line, with one exception who could have been small/malnourished for their age.
[12:13] Corona Anatine: There seems to have been no special emphasis on body position, some are said to be tightly bound, but this could just have been for economy of grave-digging and/or wrapping of the body for ease of transport. Grave goods become more frequent with time, however most are what would be expected as part of clothing and have no connotations for burial ritual, even if not merely fortuitous. The same is true of what seem to be the joints of meat left in the grave, even in Mousterian burials, which could easily derive from disturbance of earlier occupation levels.
[12:13] Corona Anatine: The separate burials of skulls at Mas’d’Azil and the child’s at La’Ferrasie are more suggestive of magical activity. The Mas’d’ Azil female having bone pieces in the eye sockets, while the child was buried with a decorated stone slab as a cover for the head, [the body was nearby]. [Trinkaus E & Shipman P 1993 p 255]
[12:13] Corona Anatine: Many burials are in hearths in the occupation floors of caves. [Clarke G & Piggot S 1965 p66], [Maringer J 1960 p57] However this does not mean that burials were only in caves, merely that others have less chance of survival, and even less of discovery, [Maringer J 1960 p14]. The use of hearths also only shows the gravediggers awareness that ash is easier to excavate than cave breccia or clay. Therefore there are no proven implications for cannibalism, or warmth for the dead.
[12:14] Corona Anatine: Recent studies done since this text was first written have been more indicative of cannibalism. Molecular studies have suggested that a genetic propensity to resistance to prion diseases, which many humans have, may be the result of ancient human consumption of human brain tissue.
[12:14] Corona Anatine: More recent identification of cannibalism is based primarily on the recognition of butchering marks on human bones, the same kinds of butchering marks--long bone breakage for marrow extraction, cut marks and chop marks resulting from skinning, defleshing and evisceration--as that seen on animals prepared for meals.
Evidence of cooking and the presence of human bone in coprolites have also been used to support a cannibalism hypothesis. This would not necessarily be from ritual activity, although such would be probable.
[12:15] Corona Anatine: Of course as ritual originates in mundane experiences, it could well be present.
[12:15] Corona Anatine: The main suggestions of ritual treatment are
i) The north-south orientation of burials
ii) The use of red ochre. This has anti-septic properties and may have been used to help delay the onset of microfaunal invasion of the body. Especially important if pre-burial rituals were performed.
iii) The defleshing of bodies. The cut marks on human bone at krapina either being only defleshing, or indicative of cannibilistic practices. Either way elaborate rituals or concepts were probably involved.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Skulls are also often found placed in cave wall niches. All that shows, is that human bone was recognized when recovered, possibly when excavating later graves. Some form of ancestor reverence is however implied.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Continuity is found into the mesolithic, where burials are also found containing red ochre, for example the female grave at Bogebakken Denmark [jensen J 1982 p25]
From the mesolithic onwards there are also examples of ‘nests’ of skulls, form caves at holenstein and Ofnet, both in southern Germany
[12:16] Corona Anatine: These had successive internments of skulls in beds of red ochre. Some of the skulls having cervical vertebrae in-situ, indicating burial as severed heads
[12:16] Corona Anatine: The Bavarian cave at Ofnet held 33 human skulls in two shallow depressions. Of 27 in the larger pit, 4 were identified as male, 7 as female and 15 as children, while the smaller pit held 2 women and 3 children. The evidence suggested that all had met a violent death. A shell necklace found near one skull were typologically similar to those found at Mugharet el-Wad, Transjordan.
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Ofnet also revealing continued occupation from the Aurignacian through to the Azialian, [Maringer J 1960 p130]
[12:17] Corona Anatine: The use of red ochre presents strong parallels with Australian koori burials. There the dead were also buried with red ochre. Strongly suggesting a common origin or experience.
[12:18] Corona Anatine: The earliest at Lake Mungo dates to circa 26 to 30ka bp. This however leaves a gap of 30,000 years between 60 and 30ka bp. Burials in Australia continued to receive red ochre up till modern times, showing a very long term continuity and stability of the custom for around 20k years. [Flood j 1983 p44-46 and 60].
[12:18] Corona Anatine: Ethnographic parallels also suggest reasons for some of the burial practices seen.
i) Bones symbolize the final fact of animal and human life, the mould from which flesh continually arises, allowing rebirth. [Eliade M 1958a p92-3]
ii) Red ochre symbolizing this rebirth. The colour relating it to female life, power or renewal of life/birth [Marshack A 1991 p18]
The concept of continuity and renewal possibly also explaining the fetal/sleep-like position in which many dead were buried. [Maringer J 1960 p18]
[12:18] Corona Anatine: B Use and repositioning of animal bone.
In addition to human remains, animal bones were sometimes treated in ways suggestive of ritual.
[12:19] Corona Anatine: for example the recent discovery of a dog buried with a mammoth bone in its mouth and it skull opened
[12:19] Corona Anatine: possibly to allow the release or escape of spirits
[12:20] Corona Anatine: This is also especially true of cave bear (Ursus Speleous) remains. Several examples of repositioning of the skulls are known. Although earlier theories of a mass cave bear cult were negated by most of the arrangements of the skulls being shown to be fortuitously derived from disturbance by hibernating bears in later years; there are still a few instances suggestive of deliberate placement.
[12:20] Corona Anatine: 1 the stone chests at Drachenloch cavern
[12:21] Corona Anatine: where up to seven skulls were discovered covered by stone slabs in stone 'chests'
[12:22] Corona Anatine: deliberate placing being shown by the fact of their orientation so as to all face the [modern] entrance to the cave
[12:22] Corona Anatine: Presence of some in situ 1st and 2nd vertebra
[12:22] Corona Anatine: shows also that some at least were still flesh covered when placed
[12:23] Corona Anatine: 2 pech Merle cave in France
[12:23] Corona Anatine: where a number of bear skulls were buried beneath small earth mounds
[12:24] Corona Anatine: these are similar to the Montespan bear which may have been covered by a bearskin
[12:24] Corona Anatine: bahn [1991] shows that it was unlikely to have been a target for some form of hunting ritual
[12:25] Corona Anatine: suggesting instead that it was placed as some form of 'guardian'
[12:25] Corona Anatine: image
[12:25] Corona Anatine: immediately before a 'special zone' in the cave
[12:26] Corona Anatine: [assuming the bear statue and the art are of the same date]
[12:26] Corona Anatine: 3 at rigourden , in addition a cave bear burial was actually identified [ Richards 1987]
[12:27] Corona Anatine: All these instances suggest burial with the intention of rebirth in the flesh or as its 'spirit' form
[12:28] Corona Anatine: Perhaps to honour the dead or pertition its spirit
[12:28] Corona Anatine: bears were certainly important , this is shown in addition by the representations of bears
[12:29] Corona Anatine: the flint bears are fairly mundane , however the art from
[12:29] Corona Anatine: Trois Freres is more suggestive
[12:29] Corona Anatine: the wounded bears are either a- hunting ritual related
[12:30] Corona Anatine: b- some form of warning /guardian image
[12:30] Corona Anatine: or c shamanic 'shape shifting images
[12:31] Corona Anatine: shape shifting also being a possible explanation for the wolf headed bear from the same location
[12:31] Corona Anatine: ethnographic parallels for many of these ideas are illustrated by Bahn [ 1991]
[12:32] Corona Anatine: and in Maringer [1960]
[12:32] Corona Anatine: concerning the concept of honouring the bear
[12:32] Corona Anatine: A different sort of ritual is implied by the finds at stellmoor North Germany
[12:33] Corona Anatine: missed the chat box in typing
[12:33] Corona Anatine: where during the ahrenburg period
[12:34] Corona Anatine: as least 45 weighted Reindeer carcasses were sunk in a lake
[12:34] Corona Anatine: above which a brownish part layer separated the deer skeletons form an overlying mesolithic layer.
[12:35] Corona Anatine: this higher layer contained the remains of identical sacrificial rituals
[12:36] Corona Anatine: the whole assemblage indicating continuity of an identical sacrificial practice over a period of at least 10,000 years
[12:36] Corona Anatine: [ Maringer 1960]
[12:36] Corona Anatine: C Red ochre - Haematite
[12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: yah, I can see Corona finally!
[12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: oops--sorry
[12:37] Corona Anatine: in addition to human remains red ochre was used to coat , thickly in some cases, numerous artefacts and materials
[12:37] Corona Anatine: from a wide geographic area
[12:38] Corona Anatine: A brief consideration of just some of these will serve to illustrate the wide range of items that were red ochre coated
[12:39] Corona Anatine: The earliest example is a symbolic artefact form the mousterian
[12:39] Corona Anatine: siat of tata dated to 100ka bp
[12:40] Corona Anatine: [ Ucko and Rosenfeld 1987]
[12:40] Corona Anatine: 1 a number of mammoth bones form Mezin with ochre painted designs dated to 22 ka bvp
[12:41] Corona Anatine: they are thought to be percussion musical instrument
[12:41] Corona Anatine: we know that bones and skulls were used in this way because of the use of horse skulls to make threshing floors resonate musically
[12:42] Corona Anatine: 2 the small geissenklosterle anthropomorth
[12:42] Corona Anatine: 3 the vogelherdehohle and sungir horses figurines
[12:43] Corona Anatine: bas reliefs of horses and fish
[12:43] Corona Anatine: 5 a female figure from kastanenski placed upright in a small pit filled with soil mixed with red ochre
[12:44] Corona Anatine: 6 cave surface decoration either being red ochre paint or in engravings showing traces of liberal coating eg the various limestone sculptures form Laussel
[12:45] Corona Anatine: 7 human bodily decoration
[12:46] Corona Anatine: this is implied by the flat cake of ochre from Maz D azil found pitted with holes and associated with sharp bone needles
[12:46] Corona Anatine: possibly tattooing
[12:46] Corona Anatine: a similar practice is recorded form Australian cultures
[12:47] Corona Anatine: human body decoration os likely to have been extensive in societies
[12:47] Corona Anatine: and is known to have been widespread in ethnographic parallels
[12:48] Corona Anatine: However while it is often related to ritual they need not have had any magic-religious connections
[12:48] Corona Anatine: 8 a number of 'laurel leaf' shaped objects
[12:48] Corona Anatine: often thickly coated with ochre
[12:49] Corona Anatine: a distinctive implement of the high and middle Solutrean periods
[12:49] Corona Anatine: The objects being very similar to Australian bull roarers
[12:49] Corona Anatine: red ochre also has implications for the bible
[12:49] Corona Anatine: a the name adam
[12:50] Corona Anatine: means 'red earth or clay'
[12:50] Chraeloos: thanks Paolo, take care
[12:50] Corona Anatine: and may show the antiquity of the legend
[12:50] Corona Anatine: this is also suggested by the similarity between
[12:51] Corona Anatine: the 'rib removal in sleep that the adam myth relates
[12:51] Corona Anatine: and their replacement of body organs in shamanic ritual
[12:52] Corona Anatine: Red ochre therefore represented a common form of symbolic marking during the upper Palaeolithic probably
[12:52] Corona Anatine: symbolism of blood/ life/ rebirth etc
[12:52] Corona Anatine: attested by numerous ethnographic parallels
[12:53] Corona Anatine: however this was not necessarily the case as parallels also indicate use in hide and skin working or fro protection from insects and or cold
[12:53] Corona Anatine: ok
[12:54] Corona Anatine: i will stop there for this week
[12:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: is someone's mike on?
[12:54] Corona Anatine: any question
[12:54] Chraeloos: Great job Corona, thank you :)
[12:54] Corona Anatine: ty
[12:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Gilles, don't you dare ask "What was the lecture on."
[12:54] Maggie: Have you red clan of the cavebear Corona
[12:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Great job , Corona
[12:54] Roxie Marten: is there a test on this?
[12:54] Corona Anatine: i will continue next time with more on art and artefacts
[12:54] Corona Anatine: only if you want one
[12:55] Chraeloos: lol Roxie
[12:55] Corona Anatine: it was a university essay
[12:55] Corona Anatine: so does condense a lot of material
[12:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: It has that scholarly flavour, Corona
[12:55] Gilles Kuhn: i
[12:55] Evie: is anyone interested in modern shamanism ?
[12:55] Gilles Kuhn: i
[12:55] Chraeloos: definitely Evie
[12:55] Gilles Kuhn: i am sorry to have been late
[12:55] Corona Anatine: modern shamans?
[12:56] Gilles Kuhn: corona by any chance you have the text in a nc?
[12:56] Chraeloos: no problem Gilles
[12:56] Corona Anatine: they would be I'm sure
[12:56] Evie: here is a good link http://www.tensegrity.org.uk
[12:56] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
Thanks for coming!
[12:56] Corona Anatine: only some of it
[12:56] Corona Anatine: i can make a nc
[12:56] Maggie: The reason I asked is the author used a lot research material in her book and a lot of it sounded familiar with what you said.
[12:56] Chraeloos: The transcript will be posted on the blog as well
[12:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Corona, that would be great
[12:56] Corona Anatine: but it will need a bit of preparing
[12:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: hi gevroe
[12:56] Chraeloos: There's also references and nc from last week if anyone missed it
[12:57] Chraeloos: just ask me and I'll send them your way
[12:57] Corona Anatine: give me a day or two
[12:57] Evie: but to be a shaman requires radical change inside as it were
[12:57] gevroe: Hi
[12:57] gevroe: :-)
[12:57] Chraeloos: Hey Gevroe
[12:57] gevroe: :-) Hey Chra
[12:57] Corona Anatine: i will be adding the ref to the nc and that will be sent to the groups
[12:58] Corona Anatine: sometimes yes
[12:58] Corona Anatine: some are born shaman
[12:58] Gilles Kuhn: what group will be noticed?
[12:58] Corona Anatine: the literature does suggest
[12:58] Katarina Waco: Thank you, Corona, for the presentation. I gotta go, RL calls. have a nice day all.
[12:58] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Kat :)
[12:58] Evie: there are great changes you to make within your consciousness to become a shaman
[12:58] Corona Anatine: that one of the characteristics of shaman was that they had gender dysphoria
[12:59] Corona Anatine: as cross-dressing is a frequent occurrence
[12:59] Corona Anatine: but that is a worth a whole evening to itself
[12:59] Evie: excuse me
[12:59] Chraeloos: tc Evie :)
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Awesome, Corona, but I need to go. Thanks for this. And you too, Chrae for hosting
[13:00] Chraeloos: thanks Rhia, take care
[13:00] Corona Anatine: yvw
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: u 2
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bye birric, Ghilles
[13:00] Maggie: See ya Rhiannon
[13:00] Gilles Kuhn: bye rhi
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Karl, thank you too; you do a great service

Tues Jan 31 Discussion Transcript

2012-01-31T11:26:00.000-08:00

Topic: The State of the Universe and Cosmogony

Over the years there have been many hypothesis as to the state of the universe. Did it start as a big bang or a steady state? Is it describable be information and therefore computable, as in digital physics?

The study of this is described by the word "cosmology". Cosmology, as defined by NASA, is "the scientific study of the large scale properties of the universe as a whole." Cosmogony also comes into play, as it has to do with "any scientific theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the cosmos or universe, or about how reality came to be." -Wikipedia

The Big Bang theory "postulates that 12 to 14 billion years ago, the portion of the universe we can see today was only a few millimetres across. It has since expanded from this hot dense state into the vast and much cooler cosmos we currently inhabit. We can see remnants of this hot dense matter as the now very cold cosmic microwave background radiation which still pervades the universe and is visible to microwave detectors as a uniform glow across the entire sky." The problem with this, is how the original matter came to exist.

Wikipedia states that "digital physics is grounded in one or more of the following hypotheses; the hypothesis are listed in order of increasing strength. The universe, or reality, is:

-essentially informational (although not every informational ontology needs to be digital);

-essentially computable;

-can be described digitally;

-in essence digital;

-itself a computer;

-the output of a simulated reality exercise."

The Steady State theory, although largely disproved by science, states that new matter must be continuously created (mostly as hydrogen) to keep the average density of matter equal over time. Or, in other words, the universe is infinite and continuous - it didn't emerge, it was just always there.

"The Ekpyrotic model came out of work by Neil Turok and Paul Steinhardt and maintains that the universe did not start in a singularity, but came about from the collision of two branes. This collision avoids the primordial singularity and superluminal expansion while preserving nearly scale-free density fluctuations and other features of the observed universe."

Wikipedia: "String theory posits that the electrons and quarks within an atom are not 0-dimensional objects, but rather 1-dimensional oscillating lines ("strings"). The earliest string model, the bosonic string, incorporated only bosons, although this view developed to the superstring theory, which posits that a connection (a "supersymmetry") exists between bosons and fermions. String theories also require the existence of several extra, unobservable dimensions to the universe, in addition to the four known spacetime dimensions.

The theory has its origins in an effort to understand the strong force, the dual resonance model (1969). Subsequent to this, five different superstring theories were developed that incorporated fermions and possessed other properties necessary for a theory of everything. Since the mid-1990s, in particular due to insights from dualities shown to relate the five theories, an eleven-dimensional theory called M-theory is believed to encompass all of the previously-distinct superstring theories."

"The Big Bounce is a theoretical scientific model of the formation of the known universe. It is implied by the cyclic model or oscillatory universe interpretation of the Big Bang where the first cosmological event was the result of the collapse of a previous universe."

Some of these ideas work together, whereas others are complete opposites. The question I pose is where do you think the universe came from (if it came from anywhere at all)? Did it always exist? Will it end?

I open the floor.

[10:30] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I recently attended cosmology discussion

[10:31] Rhiannon of the Birds: How if we see the curvature of space now, and then extrapolate backwards, the universe had to be in a close proximity that allowed acceleration--the cosmic egg of big bang theory.

[10:31] Violet: I'm totally unqualified to comment on actual physical theories, but I think cosmogony will always basically amount to a mystery; there's no totally satisfying answer, because even if something seems right, you'll end up wondering, "...and before that?"

[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: But in order to maintain density ratios, so the cosmological constant would remain, well, constant, you have to have continuous creation, and that would make for a tipping point eventually and that would mean the universe would accelerate it's expansion; and sure enough, it has, which confirms this hypothesis

[10:32] Chraeloos: I agree Violet, there's always the "what happened first?" question.

[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, well, Stephen Hawking maintains as, since you're talking about "before space-time," hence "before Time," it is a meaningless question

[10:32] Rhiannon of the Birds: "Before" only applies once there is time

[10:33] Chraeloos: Ah good point Rhia

[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, but covered by Aquines centuries before

[10:33] Chraeloos: That's interesting about the acceleration. I hadn't heard that part of it before.

[10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds: There is still a need for an explanation

[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, so, they now think they have a handle on the big bang, when it happened and what made it happen

[10:34] Chraeloos: Huh, interesting. So it's basically a proven theory? As far as one can prove something like that?

[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: Of course, where the matter came from is still a mystery; and to talk of branes colliding doesn't help--as where did the branes come from

[10:34] Rhiannon of the Birds: Confirm, or corroborated; would hesitate to say "proven." lol

[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: It needs continuous creation of one hydrogen particle per a zillions kilometres over centuries to work.

[10:35] Chraeloos: Um, wow. lol not sure that would be easy to do

[10:35] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, no problem if you're omnipotent and omniscient

[10:36] Chraeloos: True haha

[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: Or if it popped inn from another universe

[10:36] Elizabeth Spieler: I actually made a video of creation called the ATOM

[10:36] Chraeloos: Oh yeah?

[10:36] Chraeloos: haha I like that term Rhia, so relaxed. "It just popped in for tea."

[10:36] Elizabeth Spieler: let me get the link and folks can watch it later, of course my opinion of it

[10:36] Chraeloos: Sure :)

[10:36] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, and once here, you just can't get rid of it

[10:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Some atoms are like that, you know.

[10:37] Chraeloos: Well, there's the vacuum too, they exist everywhere simultaneously

[10:37] Josiane Llewellyn: I've been trying to understand string theory, as that might tie things together lol

[10:37] Josiane Llewellyn: I do feel partial to it actually

[10:37] Chraeloos: lol english is so funny. "tie things together"

[10:37] Chraeloos: Why's that Josiane?

[10:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, good luck Jos. Most string theorists don't understand it

[10:38] Elizabeth Spieler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmXV47e6Q1I

[10:38] Chraeloos: "The Little Book of String Theory" is a good place to start, if you ask me haha

[10:38] Elizabeth Spieler: I did take some ideas visually from the mayans

[10:38] Chraeloos: Thanks Eli :)

[10:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, the alternative is dark matter; to make the universe hold together, and to explain the big bang, and the rate of acceleration and the cosmological constant, there has to be a 3 to 1 ration of dark energy to known energy

[10:38] Elizabeth Spieler: : )

[10:38] Chraeloos: there's more than that isn't there?

[10:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: And what is dark energy? Energy we can't see; which has an unknown source

[10:38] Elizabeth Spieler: remember the sabbath . . don't forget that!

[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, more than what we observe

[10:39] Elizabeth Spieler: giggles

[10:39] Chraeloos: Right

[10:39] Chraeloos: lol

[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: 4 times as much as we can observe

[10:39] Chraeloos: I wrote a paper on dark matter last year actually

[10:39] Violet: I have to be heading out...take care, everyone :)

[10:39] Chraeloos: Oh take care Violet!

[10:39] Chraeloos: see you around :)

[10:39] Elizabeth Spieler: the omnipotent God only works 6 days = 6000 years then he takes a break!

[10:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: But otherwise, nothing makes sense; the curvature of space, the galaxies holding together, the push needed for the expansion of the universe, it's sudden acceleration, etc.

[10:40] Elizabeth Spieler: the universe is likened to a woman's womb

[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, creating a universe is hard work; you try it sometime

[10:40] Chraeloos: How so Eli?

[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, labor pains wipe you out, too

[10:40] Chraeloos: lol

[10:40] Elizabeth Spieler: were all a xerox of the original

[10:40] Chraeloos: Ah

[10:40] Rhiannon of the Birds: I prefer to think I'm scanned, personally

[10:40] Chraeloos: neat way of putting that

[10:41] Elizabeth Spieler: everything operates like a compass, huge clue

[10:41] Chraeloos: I still don't see how we can say for sure one theory is more right than the next. It comes down to our limited understanding and language

[10:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, there's observation corroborating some.

[10:42] Chraeloos: true

[10:42] Elizabeth Spieler: the problem is trying to reconcile inner and outer worlds, they don't match

[10:42] Rhiannon of the Birds: The universe is seen to be expanding and accelerating, just like the theory of dark matter/cosmological constant predicts

[10:43] Elizabeth Spieler: like we apply the label rock to a rock, then our mind thinks it knows what it is, but no one really knows what a rock is or how it came to be

[10:43] Chraeloos: exactly

[10:43] Rhiannon of the Birds: Cosmogony, on the other hand--only two theories on the table--that it's a meaningless question or that the universe was created somehow

[10:43] Elizabeth Spieler: we ponder creation because were born, which is a creation

[10:44] Elizabeth Spieler: in a delivery room when your born, no one came through a door

[10:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Or in other words, "Shut up!" or nihilo ex nihilo fit, so there is a God

[10:44] Elizabeth Spieler: your actually already all knowing, it's your neurons that don't seek to understand

[10:44] Elizabeth Spieler: oops do seek to understand

[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: this is due to the law of reflection

[10:45] Chraeloos: law of reflection?

[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: much like a lake saying why are you reflecting on me?

[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: get your image off me!

[10:45] Chraeloos: ah

[10:45] Josiane Llewellyn: well, there is the theory too about the multiverse

[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: but of course no lake says that lol

[10:45] Josiane Llewellyn: many universes

[10:45] Elizabeth Spieler: but humans do

[10:45] Chraeloos: Well, that we know of Eli haha

[10:45] Rhiannon of the Birds: yah, I was using 'universe' in the original sense; but multiverse would be the modern phrase. Thanks, Jos

[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: I meant "the whole shebang"

[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: Some things imply a multiverse

[10:46] Chraeloos: what's the difference?

[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: Continuous creation, if it isn't to violate the law of conservation implies some place else

[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, the universe is our space-time continuum

[10:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: The multiverse allows for parallel worlds, and so forth

[10:47] Chraeloos: ah ok

[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Alternative time tracks

[10:47] Chraeloos: but how does that work into continuous creation?

[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, where do the hydrogen atoms come from?

[10:47] Chraeloos: right

[10:47] Chraeloos: Oh ok

[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: If we believe in the first law of thermodynamics, their "creation" means a leakage from outside the system

[10:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: The system being the universe

[10:47] Chraeloos: I get it haha sorry slow this morning

[10:48] Josiane Llewellyn: Do you think the multiverse could include brane theory?

[10:48] Chraeloos: Ok, but you still get the question of how did it get to that universe

[10:48] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yeah, you're but a shadow of your former self, Chrae; I've noticed that the last two times I've seen you

[10:48] Rhiannon of the Birds: Jos, other way around, brane theory implies the multiverse

[10:49] Chraeloos: hahaha Rhia, I am protesting censorship!

[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: And string theory says that gravity is really symmetrical with EM, so it leaches into other universes

[10:49] Josiane Llewellyn: oh, I wondered :)

[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: So one thing the Hadron Collider is being used for is to see if they can see gravitons leaching into other universes--apparently just vanishing

[10:49] Chraeloos: Indeed. We don't all want to look like this!

[10:49] Rhiannon of the Birds: All well and good, but no one has ever seen a graviton

[10:50] Chraeloos: I was going to say haha

[10:50] Chraeloos: They have seen things disappear though, haven't they?

[10:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: And maybe the simplest explanation for gravity being 1/10th the strength of EM is that it, indeed, is one tenth the strength of EM and the difference is made up by dark energy--which seems implied by everything else we know about astrophysics, anyway

[10:51] Josiane Llewellyn: so gravitons are not proven to exist?

[10:51] lloubras Eyre: interesting but must leave, bye all!**)*

[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: No, they are simply the best explanation of gravity

[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: bye, illoubras!

[10:51] Chraeloos: THanks for coming Iloubras

[10:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: But if we believe that space is warped by mass, then we really don't need them to explain gravity

[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: gravity =space warps or "gravity wells."

[10:52] Chraeloos: That makes sense, then. I see why this theory prevails haha

[10:52] Chraeloos: everything else relies on belief and trust in that belief

[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah.

[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: "Turtles all the way down."

[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol

[10:52] Chraeloos: What is that from?

[10:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bertrand Russell

[10:52] Chraeloos: Ah ok

[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: One of his first acts as a philosopher was to give a lecture

[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: He explained the state of astrophysics at the time.

[10:53] Chraeloos: Cool, I didn't know that.

[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: A little old lady came up to him and said, "All well and good, young man, but the Earth rests on a turtle, you know. And I know what you're going to say. But it's turtles all the way down."

[10:53] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol

[10:53] Chraeloos: lol!

[10:53] Elizabeth Spieler: giggles

[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: He was still chuckling over it 70 years later when he wrote his autobiography

[10:54] Chraeloos: I believe it haha

[10:54] Chraeloos: So, how certain do you think we can be about this?

[10:54] Rhiannon of the Birds: Not very, but enough, I suppose

[10:55] Rhiannon of the Birds: We have some evidence, it makes everything hook together and it motivates further exploration and that's enough

[10:55] Josiane Llewellyn: I still don't see how string theory fits with big bang and space curvature though.

[10:55] Chraeloos: I'm very skeptical about any theory that claims to be correct. I'm always stuck on the fact of langauge and understanding limiting the way we see the truth.

[10:55] Josiane Llewellyn: but string theory and the multiverse should work okay together.

[10:55] Chraeloos: er, "truth"

[10:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, it may not; that's why most atrophysicists reject string theory

[10:56] Josiane Llewellyn: oh! didn't realize that

[10:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: I went to a lecture here in SL on dark energy and asked the question--well, doesn't string theory provide an alternative to dark matter

[10:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: He said, "Oh, don't get me started on string theory..." lol

[10:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, I'm a Popperian

[10:57] Chraeloos: lol Rhia, always asking the tough questions. It's a good way to be!

[10:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: The dark energy model is corroborated--it explains the curvature of space and what must be the case for the expansion and predicted the acceleration

[10:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: But that doesn't make it true, just not falsified yet

[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: ty, Chrae!

[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: I mean dark energy is a lot like phlogiston--the missing element that makes for fire

[10:58] Rhiannon of the Birds: It didn't exist; we discovered oxygen was the missing element

[10:59] Chraeloos: ah ok

[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: But well, something is doing it and it is mysteries and it is a form of enfergy, so it's not quite like that, it's true there must be such an energy source and we have *no idea* what it is

[10:59] Chraeloos: rhia, is there any topic you don't know at least something about?

[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: (God, god, god, god...)

[10:59] Josiane Llewellyn: lol

[10:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, well, I'm not to good on, um, no...

[10:59] Chraeloos: lol that's a whole different discussion. Come to the sunday lectures to get into that lol

[11:00] Chraeloos: XD

[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, I can look at a car engine and get totally confused. There, there's one

[11:00] Josiane Llewellyn: we have that in common then

[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: "Is that the battery?" "No, ma'am, that's where the coolent is."

[11:00] Chraeloos: haha me too, but my partner is trying to teach me. it's not as confusing as you'd think!

[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol Not quite that bad

[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: when adam and eve sewed fig leaves it's because they didn't have SKIN

[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: so they appeared much like a car engine

[11:01] Josiane Llewellyn: then they should have come to SL, lots of skins here

[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: so our skin covers the real workings of us

[11:01] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, good, liz. Since I have skin, I don't need fig leaves

[11:01] Chraeloos: Alright everyone thats the hour! If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/

Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/

Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/

Thanks for coming!

[11:01] Elizabeth Spieler: what I mean is remove your skin and you would openly see all your organs etc

[11:02] Chraeloos: Unfortunately I have to take off, but feel free to stick around and enjoy yourselves.

[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: blood flow heart beating

[11:02] Josiane Llewellyn: I need to go too

[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: this is why they felt shame

[11:02] Josiane Llewellyn: thanks everyone

[11:02] Josiane Llewellyn: good discussion

[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: thank you

[11:02] Chraeloos: Great discussion! See you around :)

[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: yeah, time for me to go too

[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: ty Chrae!

[11:02] Chraeloos: Take care

[11:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: Great job as usual

[11:02] Elizabeth Spieler: I need to build myself have a great day!

Corona Anatine Lecture Jan 29 Review

2012-01-29T12:52:00.001-08:00

The topic was the emergence, invention, and evolution of religion and magic. A controversial topic, one that was held over in the discussion afterwards. About a dozen people came. This lecture is part one of an ongoing series, as the topic is quite broad. Come join us next week for part two! Transcript below:

[12:05] Corona Anatine: right a brief bit of background

[12:05] Corona Anatine: those late will miss

[12:06] Corona Anatine: this is from a long essay i did at Univ

[12:06] Corona Anatine: for my BSc- that was in 1994 - so some of this may be out of date

[12:06] Corona Anatine: but it was the result of about 15 weeks compilation of notes

[12:07] Chraeloos: wow Corona, that's intense

[12:07] Corona Anatine: i will also be including references - however they wont be in the chat - but i can supply any on request

[12:07] Tara Li: Notecard?

[12:08] Tara LiTara Li wants to learn Bene Geserit Religious Engineering.

[12:08] Corona Anatine: can but it has many and would take about an hour to type them all

[12:08] Tara Li: Ahh - ok - never mind.

[12:08] Corona Anatine: so requests for specifics would be easier all round

[12:08] Corona Anatine: but yes i can make a notecard

[12:08] Tara LiTara Li just has this urge to try to know everything.

[12:09] Corona Anatine: thirdly this is part one - the topic is vast and easier if split over two or more weeks

[12:10] Of Oz: Careful, Tara. Thats the same as nothing...

[12:10] Tara Li: Well - yeah, Of!

[12:10] Corona Anatine: ok -some notes on the invention and evolution of religion and magic

[12:10] Chraeloos: Alright, so we'll get started. Just so everyone is aware, comments and questions should be held until after the lecture when the discussion is open. Transcript will be posted at the blog:http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/ Thanks for coming and enjoy!

[12:10] Chraeloos: Hi Adam

[12:10] Tara LiTara Li knows too much already - the only way to solve the problem is to wrap around.

[12:11] Of Oz: or get reborn,Tara

[12:11] Corona Anatine: one sec

[12:11] Corona Anatine: In the historic period a myriad of religions have arisen and faded, with a similar fleetingness to empires.,

[12:11] Tara Li: That's kinda risky - I might get reborn as someone who knows as much as I do.

[12:11] Corona Anatine: As all religions ultimately stem from the human imaginations concerning the supernatural; it is of interest to require how, when and why such beliefs were invented.

[12:11] Of Oz: usual rebirth system involves lots of lovely forgetting, T

[12:12] Corona Anatine: No system of belief is likely to have existed in the social groups of australopithecines, or probably even of Homo Erectus, [although there is a reference to chimpanzees shouting at the sky when their was a storm. But that would not be proof of religion, only that storm’s annoy chimpanzees]

[12:12] Corona Anatine: It follows therefore that sometime in-between then and now, the fictions behind ritual and religion were formulated.

[12:12] Corona Anatine: G.E. Swanson [1966 pg1] suggests that all such ideas arise in human perceptions and experiences of the surrounding natural environment.

[12:13] Corona Anatine: Knowledge of beliefs shows they do not persist in isolation. As a result the forces which produce and support belief will be present, along with the derived belief system.

What is uncertain and unclear is whether the beliefs are now engineered by the same experiences as those which produced them in the past. [G.E. Swanson 1966 pg5]

[12:13] Corona Anatine: Information concerning belief systems of modern populations is obtainable from direct questioning or from documentary sources. Written texts also being available for earlier belief systems and their development. Even if not always possessing clarity of details. For prehistoric periods such sources are entirely absent. The only way to obtain knowledge is from physical traces of rituals and ceremonies.

[12:13] Corona Anatine: How would such rituals be recognizable? This requires that ritual is first defined. It is probably accurate to state that beliefs and magic were formerly integral to everyday life, as they are derived from everyday experiences.

Clear definitions are given by R. Merrifield [1987 pg 6]

[12:14] Corona Anatine: Religion: Belief in supernatural or spiritual concepts or entities. Religion also incorporates explanations of the place and origin of all things; people, animals and the material world, as well as supernatural. Religion also holds the body of mythology and legends in its function of recording information. Religion itself tends to be a passive force followed by the majority of the population, among whom it serves as a force for social order and cohesion [ and later coercion]

[12:15] Corona Anatine: Magic: Practices intended to control the supernatural forces and entities with the aim of influencing events. Magic is therefore an active task.

Control of the forces requiring magic power and ability.

[12:15] Corona Anatine: This has four consequences.

[12:15] Corona Anatine: I] Only a select few tend to perform magic, from shaman and vola to prophet. Their historical importance depending on the amount of support they gather and/or desire

[12:16] Corona Anatine: II] Some form of selection process occurs, either self selection, or selection by supernatural, which means in effective reality the previous generation of magic practitioners.

[12:16] Corona Anatine: III] Those with power tend to be separated from mainstream society and activities to a greater or lesser degree; possibly even living physically remote.

[12:16] Corona Anatine: IV] The practitioners tend to be those in the population who have greater wisdom, from greater than average intellect and/or age.

Such people tending to be the main driving force behind all religions.

[12:16] Corona Anatine: Ritual: “prescribed or customary behaviour that may be religious, magical or social in function, ….something of all three functions possibly being discernible in a single ritual activity” Merrifield [1987 pg 6].

[12:17] Corona Anatine: For archaeological purposes ritual would be recognizable as an assemblage or context of material items or traces of activity which is not purely utilitarian or economic in purpose. This immediately raises the problem that, as only the material traces of ritual are left, any ritual recognized, however outlandish it seems, might be purely social in origin, with no magico-religious elements involved.

[12:17] Corona Anatine: Even then the ritual elements in an assemblage must actually be recognized as such. This is not aided by our ignorance concerning the context and function of many artefacts, particularly of the Palaeolithic. G Richards [1987 p114

[12:17] Corona Anatine: Moreover it is likely that the earliest types of ritual involved only non material or non preserving elements. The non material elements of ritual often being the most important.

It is even possible that Palaeolithic humans had no magico-religious beliefs whatsoever, even after even after rituals become recognizable. However although this is possible, it is unlikely for several reasons.

[12:18] Corona Anatine: I] All human groups, of whatever technological level; whether historical or modern have some form of magico-religious dimension to their world view. This must have originated at some point in time. Such universality suggests that magic beliefs are basic to human mental processes

[12:18] Corona Anatine: [this has been shown to be the case since 94]

[12:19] Corona Anatine: II ] Development of belief systems probably originated at around the same time as the radiation and expansion of other aspects of culture such as art technology and language. In fact, while mastery of technology required full understanding of the problems involved, which meant development was necessarily relatively slow, belief systems have no such problem.

[12:19] Corona Anatine: Beliefs need only be thought up and can progress to conceptual maturity in a single lifetime. Nor do beliefs have to be correct. If believed and explaining the focus of explanation adequately, magic and religion could arise rapidly, progressing and evolving without any need for valid proof.

[12:19] Corona Anatine: The first concepts probably derived from observations of connections and similarities, ultimately leading to the ideas behind Frazers two principles of magic. These often appear to be nonsensical for three reasons.

[12:20] Corona Anatine: i) Because the society holding such a belief has evolved since the idea or concept was first formulated or invented.

[12:20] Corona Anatine: II) The connection might not be obvious, or it might assume knowledge of the intermediate chain of connection.

[12:21] Corona Anatine: iii) The connection might have been seen in a supernatural reality, in a trance, dream, hallucinogenic state or other other condition which alters perception, such as illness or fever.

[12:21] Corona Anatine: for example in the case of Muhammad who experienced various medical symptoms according to the Hadith

[12:22] Corona Anatine: The existence of altered states of perception and hallucinations would also require explanation and be perceived as actually happening at some level of reality. This would result in development of ideas of a ‘spirit world’ related to but separate from, the physical world.

[12:22] Corona Anatine: If beliefs existed as seems likely, what form of systems would they have been present within. In order to construct a plausible picture of what Palaeolithic religion and magic might have been like, several things must be attempted.

[12:22] Corona Anatine: 1) Evaluation of the world which was experienced in the period, when people were first likely to have been sufficiently self aware to theorize concerning their world. In particular looking for worldwide universals of belief, which reflect extreme antiquity, stemming from fundamentals of the environment or the human mind, or from a common geographic origin following migrational diffusion.

[12:22] Corona Anatine: 2) Estimation of what their conclusions and explanations for the forces in the physical world might have been.

[12:23] Corona Anatine: 3) Examination of the archaeological material record to see what evidence of ritual is discernible.

[12:23] Corona Anatine: 4) Assessment of ethnographic material to see what belief systems are present among modern-day low technology human groups, and what natural and/or supernatural explanations for the physical world they have theorized. In particular looking for parallels between their material remains and those from the Palaeolithic.

[12:23] Corona Anatine: 5) Analysis and synthesis to reach a plausible theory of the nature of Palaeolithic belief systems and hence the origins of the invention of religion in general.

[12:24] Corona Anatine: 1 & 2 Evaluation of their world, and estimation of their beliefs.

[12:24] Corona Anatine: Most of the things, which are definable about the world known to Palaeolithic humans, are fairly basic and obvious; many of the points however make details in the Palaeolithic record more explainable. At least in relation to hunter-gatherer groups

[12:24] Corona Anatine: And these have to have been the sole state of existence for all groups, because even if you allow an advanced human civilization in the pleistocene, there has to have been a period before that in which they were not advanced.

[12:24] Corona Anatine: The population was probably of low density, with small bands of around 30 hunter-gatherers in a local area.

[12:25] Corona Anatine: They would have had a detailed knowledge of the characteristics of the biosphere around them. Possibly “incorporating animals into a vision of the world in which the boundaries between the natural and supernatural were not clearly defined” [A Levi-Gourhan 1972 pg 7]

[12:25] Corona Anatine: Most lived brief lives. The majority were dead by the age of 35, while only a minority of children would likely have survived beyond seven or so years, and hardly 1% survived past past 40 years A Burl 1989 pg13 [ these estimates have been revised upwards since I first quoted this but not greatly so ]

[12:26] Corona Anatine: The old man of Aix-la Chapelle being only in his thirties, yet his skeletal pathology suggested a male over 50.

[12:26] Corona Anatine: The high mortality had two consequences:

[12:26] Corona Anatine: a) Death was common and of unknown cause or destiny.

[12:26] Corona Anatine: b) As the old had long term memories and wisdom of experience before dying, it would seem like the dead had more knowledge.

[12:27] Corona Anatine: The recently dead would also be present in dreams, possibly suggesting that the dead returned. Dreams also perhaps suggesting that “ a dreamers spirit was able to leave the body and journey independently” [PJ Ucko and Grosenfield 1967 p120]

[12:27] Corona Anatine: Dreams are also subject to a variety of influences:

[12:27] Corona Anatine: the presence of THC receptors in the brain, which only seem to have this function, and they would have been present throughout our evolution.

T McKenna [1992] also suggests a role for psilocybins in human evolution.

[12:28] Corona Anatine: Lucid dreaming, enabling telepathy during sleep. This might well account for the trans-island conceptual transfer by food washing monkeys. If so it suggests the mechanism is very ancient in evolutionary terms.

Telepathy of some sort would also possibly explain how a dog could know the moment of of death of an elderly patient from several miles away.

[12:28] Corona Anatine: which a recent case has shown occurred

[12:28] Cosmic Carousel: food washing monkeys?

[12:29] Corona Anatine: the significance of dreams is also shown in the bible - where ALL the times YHVH manifests it is in dreams

[12:29] Corona Anatine: yeah i will find the article in a bit

[12:29] Corona Anatine: goes back to about 1990

[12:29] Corona Anatine: Dreams and thoughts are also affected by emotion and mood changes. P Shuttle and P Redgrove [1978] show that menstruation is known for this. Moreover “It has been shown that …external senses decline at menstruation, while interior bodily sensations apparently increase correspondingly” P Shuttle and P Redgrove [1978 p166]

[12:30] Corona Anatine: Some contemporary societies see this as making women “fraught with a strange power… a kind of shamanic or magic holiness, leading to ….prophetic fits and trances” P Shuttle and P Redgrove [1978 p65]

[12:30] Corona Anatine: This seems to have led to a worldwide custom/initiation of segregating women at menarche. M Eliade (1958a p42) which also seems to be a custom found only in matriarchal societies, M Eliade (1958a p44) male based ones tending to seclude women at every cycle, and not just the first.

[12:30] Corona Anatine: Hallucinations in general would bring out phosphenes; subconscious geometric images, apparently basic to the human neural system and visual cortex. These images are seen as dots, zig-zags and squiggles etc.

[12:30] Corona Anatine: Entoptic phenomena

[12:31] Corona Anatine: Where present in Palaeolithic decoration they may illustrate use of trance states and/or drug induced consciousness.

[12:31] Corona Anatine: The women themselves would be the source of all new population, and because the statistical population mean of menstrual cycles is 29 days a connection with the lunar cycle and the cycles of the tides would likely have suggested to them a link between water the moon and women.

[12:31] Corona Anatine: Moreover there would have been no obvious link between menstruation and sexual activity. As unlike with animals, menstruation and peak fertility do not coincide, nor are all humans fertile.

[12:32] Corona Anatine: This would have resulted in pregnancy being random and of mysterious origin. Many children are born blood covered. This, together with the occurrence of spontaneous loss of various fetal development stages may have suggested that children develop from nothing in female blood.

[12:32] Corona Anatine: This would have made it a magical substance in addition to the likely known fact that blood loss would weaken or kill.

[12:32] Corona Anatine: Furthermore there would be a further connection women=magic= blood, and it would also have been observed that any form of blood spilt would assist plant growth, especially by the women themselves. [men lacking a regular non-injurious supply. This would likely have helped in the task allocation by gender division, if women were seen as better at plant care than men.

[12:32] Corona Anatine: Additionally however menstruation after menarche or even before would be relatively rare except in in-fertile women, which may have supplied the imagined link – most menstruous women are infertile = pregnancy has been supernaturally withheld, = because the ‘spirits’ have been offended = menstruating women have offended the supernatural = women in that state are evil/bad.

[12:33] Corona Anatine: The development of awareness of such things is likely to have occurred around the period of expansion in other spheres of social activity at around 100,000 years bp.

[12:33] Corona Anatine: the ideas slowly growing into conscious thought rather than an abrupt invention

[12:33] Corona Anatine: 3 Examination of the Palaeolithic archaeological material evidence.

[12:34] Corona Anatine: Examination shows that the earliest signs of expressive, possibly ritual activity occurs at circa 200,000 to 300,000 bp, with the use of ochre pigment at Terra Amata, and the engraved ox rib from Peche de L’Aze.

[12:34] Corona Anatine: The main expansion however, occurs at the beginning of the Aurignacian period, simultaneously across large parts of Europe. This seems to have been a cultural phenomena however, rather than a biological or neurological one. [R White 1992 pg 74]

[12:34] Corona Anatine: [although that has been disputed since 94]

[12:34] Corona Anatine: The surviving material suggests a number of elements possibly reflecting traces of Palaeolithic ritual activities:

[12:35] Corona Anatine: [for these evening i am only going to cover the first of these

[12:35] Corona Anatine: and then only partially

[12:35] Corona Anatine: the continuation will be in part 2 next sunday

[12:36] Corona Anatine: a) Burial and treatment of human remains

[12:36] Corona Anatine: b) Use and repositioning of non human skeletal elements.

[12:36] Corona Anatine: c) Pigmentation of materials with red ochre.

[possibly of related significance to the fact that ‘Adam’ in hebrew means ‘red earth or clay’]

[12:37] Corona Anatine: d) Pictorial representation both parietal and mobiliarly, of several classes

i) Possible notational decoration.

ii) Geometric shapes and designs

iii) Dominance of horse and bison in cave art.

iv) ‘Venus’ images of female shape

v) Athropomorths. – ‘Shamen’ figures

Plus one or two other things in passing.

[12:37] Corona Anatine: Each section will both examine the evidence and compare it with ethnographic parallels and possible continuity, in order to collect the materials adjacently.

[12:37] Corona Anatine: a) Burial and treatment of remains.

[12:37] Corona Anatine: A few other species of higher mammals “show grief and some degree of concern for their recently dead, but ritual burials seem unique to humanity” [G Richards 1987 p285]

[12:38] Corona Anatine: Presumably the earliest hominids had a similar grief and concern. However the earliest known definitely intentional burials are of Mousterian Neanderthals.

[12:38] Corona Anatine: However the earliest burials were not necessarily by Neanderthals as the oldest known is the group burial of La Ferrasie [100 ka bp ] This burial lies at the very start of the period when early modern humans appear. But it does seem probable both because of the latitude, and the apparent lack of mixed race burials.

[12:38] Corona Anatine: There are not that many extant burials however and humans of either group might have avoided mixing their dead with those of another group, whether of the same race or not.

[12:39] Corona Anatine: Examination of the list of known burials shows that the main features of upper Palaeolithic burial are

[12:39] Corona Anatine: i) Frequent coverage of the body with red ochre. In some cases directly onto bone, indicating burial of fleshless or deliberately de-fleshed bone. Red ochre coverage becomes even more frequent as the Palaeolithic advances, suggesting the slow establishment of a ritual tradition

[12:39] Corona Anatine: However 100% coverage of burials is never reached, some burials never warranting red ochre coverage for some reason. Perhaps as simple as lack of the material or variation in micro-local traditions.

[12:40] Corona Anatine: ii) Orientation of the body. In the earlier Mousterian there is no preference for body orientation towards any compass direction. By the upper paleolithic in contrast there is an immediate and definite orientation of bodies with their head to the north or along a north-south axis. This is certainly deliberate and very probably ritual. There being no sanitary reason required beyond mere burial.

[12:40] Corona Anatine: North = 41

NE = 2

East = 0

SE = 0

South = 5

SW = 1

West = 1

NW = 5

[12:41] Corona Anatine: This shows a remarkably consistent practice through time, and across a broad geographic range

[12:41] Corona Anatine: the association of the south with younger ages and the north with older people also stands out

[12:42] Corona Anatine: [ a table shows this ]

[12:43] Corona Anatine: Al children also being on a N-S line with one older exception who could have been an adult of small stature or malnourished

[12:43] Corona Anatine: and there i will leave it for this week

[12:43] Corona Anatine: questions

[12:43] Violet: Thanks, Corona :)

[12:44] Chraeloos: Great Job Corona, thanks!

[12:44] Corona Anatine: yw

[12:44] Corona Anatine: ty

[12:44] Adam: Nice presentation Corona ^^

[12:44] Corona Anatine: there were not that many refs so i can write a notecard of them

[12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, thank you, Corona.

[12:44] Of Oz: thankyou

[12:44] Cosmic Carousel: ty :-)

[12:44] Rhiannon of the Birds: Can I ask a question?

[12:45] Chraeloos: I think the idea is grand, it shows a good perspective. Some interesting points, too

[12:45] Chraeloos: Yes Rhi, go ahead

[12:45] Violet: Hi Paulo :)

[12:45] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot smiles

[12:45] Chraeloos: Hi Paolo

[12:45] Corona Anatine: sure

[12:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: It was a little ambiguous at part, esp. when you were talking of the spirit world, but I thought you might be making a metaphysical assumption that the tribes had got it wrong. That their metaphysics was wrong. Although you did make it seem like dreams and hallucinogens did reveal a reality to them

[12:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: So my question is what do you think of the metaphysics involved

[12:46] Paolo Rousselot: (they do)

[12:46] Corona Anatine: it would have done as far as they were concerned

[12:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: hi Paolo!

[12:46] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot waves at Rhi

[12:46] Paolo Rousselot: sorry I'm so late...

[12:47] Corona Anatine: whether this is an objective or subjective reality is a moot point and perhaps not really relevant - if they thought it was real then to them it was

[12:47] AdamAdam loves Rhi's line of thought :)

[12:47] Chraeloos: No problem, you just missed the lecture. You can find the transcript later on the blog http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/

[12:47] Paolo Rousselot: it was/is real

[12:47] Paolo Rousselot: been there

[12:47] Of Oz: I would like to take issue with something right at the start

[12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: ok, well, not a moot point, but I thought that it should be at least bracketed off for objectivity

[12:47] Corona Anatine: ok

[12:47] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thank you

[12:48] Corona Anatine: it was taken form a university essay i did in my final year back in 94

[12:48] Of Oz: " G.E. Swanson [1966 pg1] suggests that all such ideas arise in human perceptions and experiences of the surrounding natural environment."

I don't like the emphasis here. I think that it is above all "interior" experiences that shape our religious and mystical beliefs, and those of "religion founders" who stand proxy for those with none of their own. To be direct, down the ages countless individuals have had "personal meetings with God", which have a profound effect on their subsequent viewpoints. A few founded religions. Probably ones who understood (remembered) less well than average lol.

[12:48] Corona Anatine: and has not been updated since then

[12:48] Corona Anatine: but it had to make a lot of coverage with few words

[12:49] Paolo Rousselot: similarities between experiences not including cultural differences in viewpoint?

[12:49] Corona Anatine: but it would still be part of the natural environment

[12:49] Corona Anatine: whether in dreams /visions or otherwise

[12:49] Violet: I have to be going...thank you, Corona. Take care, everyone :)

[12:50] Chraeloos: Thanks Violet, Take care!

[12:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, ty Corona an Chrae; I have to go; I'm visiting virtual ability to help my partner, who's a stroke victim

[12:50] Cosmic Carousel: bye Violet

[12:50] Corona Anatine: even if you assume the existence of the supernatural or 'god' then it would still manifest via the natural environment

[12:50] Tara Li: Later, Violet!

[12:50] Of Oz: that stretches the concept of "natural environment" beyond usefulness ?

[12:50] Chraeloos: Thanks Rhia, take care!

[12:50] Rhiannon of the Birds: u 2

[12:50] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds waves at everyone

[12:50] Corona Anatine: the cultural differences exist yes

[12:50] Paolo Rousselot: have to take into account the "lens" of personal psychology through which the experience is viewed

[12:51] sofa cushion: Hi Chraeloos Resident! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.

[12:51] Paolo Rousselot: culture is a part of that

[12:51] Corona Anatine: but the original purpose of the essay was to examine the evidence for ritual in the Palaeolithic

[12:51] Of Oz: YES, Paolo, very true ...It is a characteristic of the "meeting with God" that the heart of the experience cannot be verbalized or fully remembered (there is nothing to remember) and so the feelings of infinite significance are transferred by memory to incidentals, ancillary and peripheral aspects. Hence the establishment of belief systems, religions and cults with superficialities mistakenly taken as central.

[12:51] Corona Anatine: and for that cultural inferences have to be minimized

[12:51] Tara LiTara Li kinda wonders where the God Helmet plays into this - maybe gets mentioned in Pt 2?

[12:52] Paolo Rousselot: the personal experiences can be - and often are, remembered and experienced quite well

[12:52] Corona Anatine: god helmet?

[12:52] Corona Anatine: oh the god element

[12:52] Tara Li: *nods* Helmet with magnetic inductance probes on it.

[12:52] Paolo RousselotPaolo Rousselot chuckles

[12:53] Tara Li: Induces a feeling of "immanence" in about 70% of the population, last I heard.

[12:53] Tara Li: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

[12:53] Corona Anatine: its not - I'm looking at the material remains- the evidence for dreams and rituals ect - the actual gods and supernatural content were ignored

[12:53] Adam: :) gtg, bye all

[12:53] Chraeloos: Thanks Adam, Take Care!

[12:53] Of Oz: "QUITE well" - exactly, well enough to misunderstand in the case of most religion founders lol

[12:53] Tara Li: Later, Adam!

[12:54] Tara Li: Not sure what you mean by God element.

[12:54] Paolo Rousselot: sufficient proximity to the unconscious produces imagery i.e. symbolism in the personal experience that is directly related to ancient myth

[12:54] Corona Anatine: the element of the religions and magic that incorporates 'god'

[12:55] Tara Li: Ahhh... Ok.

[12:55] Corona Anatine: which is only a small fraction of religion and ritual

[12:55] Tara Li: *nods*

[12:55] Corona Anatine: look at the modern ones

[12:55] Tara Li: But the God Helmet suggests that there are electro-magnetic factors that can cause a belief in gods - creating a religion.

[12:55] Corona Anatine: they tend to be about human ancestors - prophets saints seers etc

[12:56] Corona Anatine: and or where they lived or did important things

[12:56] Of Oz: the point in this context is - to what extent do the religious beliefs adopted by a group originate in personal mystical experiences, either single or communal?

[12:56] Corona Anatine: not 'god'

[12:56] Tara Li: Hum...

[12:56] Tara LiTara Li will re-read the transcript.

[12:56] Corona Anatine: i would say all

[12:56] Corona Anatine: in the earliest period of modern human culture

[12:56] Paolo Rousselot: Oz - I think the difficulty comes in when "religion" is entered into the "equation"

[12:57] Of Oz: I think they are a great influence, though later of course the possible original purity of the vision is diluted, perverted and abused almost out of existence

[12:57] Corona Anatine: to separate o religion form secular likely had no meaning

[12:57] Corona Anatine: again the bible highlights this - being told as it is by people of the time

[12:57] Of Oz: I think it has huge meaning, Corona

[12:57] Corona Anatine: it reflects their beliefs

[12:58] Paolo Rousselot: toss out the bible - it really has little relevance as it's been so distorted over the ages

[12:58] Corona Anatine: and the majority of yhvh manifesting is in dreams

[12:58] Of Oz: these old books are almost all disgusting

[12:58] Corona Anatine: someone has a dream and calls a seer to interpret it

[12:59] Corona Anatine: if you read the bible carefully

[12:59] Corona Anatine: the only time YHVH appears is in dreams

[12:59] Corona Anatine: the rest is prophets talking ABOUT YHvh

[13:00] Corona Anatine: it is very shamanic in that regard

[13:00] Katarina Waco: I must go, time for RL. Bye all, thanks for the presentation, Corona.

[13:00] Corona Anatine: yw

[13:00] Chraeloos: Thanks Kat, take care

[13:00] Corona Anatine: thanks for listening

[13:01] Corona Anatine: ok i will send a note card of the ref used here to Chraeloos to post in groups

[13:01] Paolo Rousselot: Corona - just reading your profile statements - well said!

[13:01] Chraeloos: Alright everyone that's the hour. If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog, new topics will be posted before the events: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/

Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/

Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/

Thanks for coming!

[13:01] Corona Anatine: ty Paolo

[13:01] Corona Anatine: next week i will start where i ended this week

[13:02] Chraeloos: Yeah if anyone wants the notecard let me know and I'll send it your way

Tues Jan 31 Intro Notes

2012-01-29T11:01:00.000-08:00

Topic: The State of the Universe and Cosmogony

Wikipedia states that "digital physics is grounded in one or more of the following hypotheses; the hypothesis are listed in order of increasing strength. The universe, or reality, is:

-essentially informational (although not every informational ontology needs to be digital);

-essentially computable;

-can be described digitally;

-in essence digital;

-itself a computer;

-the output of a simulated reality exercise."

I open the floor.

Corona Anatine Lecture Jan 22, 2012

2012-01-22T13:10:00.000-08:00

Corona presented her lecture on cave and rock art to seven people today. It went very well, and the discussion afterwards went on for forty-five minutes. The question was asked, "why did the cavemen change their drawings (add colour)?", we talked about uranium and a rock drawing in Australia warning of naturally occurring uranium. A few new people came, but most were repeats. Thanks to everyone for coming! Topic for next week TBA.

[12:09] Chraeloos: Alright, I think we'll get started. Just so everyone is aware, all comments are to be held until after the lecture, when the discussion takes place. If you comment, and get a warning, and don't stop, you will be banned (not something I like doing).

[12:10] Chraeloos: So, please be patient, and enjoy the lecture!

[12:10] Corona Anatine: ok right

[12:10] Corona Anatine: i will copy and paste to chat - if anyone has a problem with keeping up then please say

[12:10] Corona Anatine: in im

[12:11] Corona Anatine: i will also pause to move images every so often your patience is appreciated during brief pauses

[12:12] Corona Anatine: ok Rock art and an symbolism

[12:12] Corona Anatine: One of the main problems of interpreting prehistoric art is the difficulty of understanding what the images are meant to represent.

[12:13] Corona Anatine: An illustration of the difficulties is found in Mithen’s ‘Prehistory of the mind’ a search for the origins of art religion and science’ [Phoenix 1996] which illustrates how potentially complex the meanings behind prehistoric art may be.

[12:13] Corona Anatine: The complex and multiple meanings that may be found in the simplest geometric designs found in Palaeolithic art can be illustrated with an example from Koori art.

The social anthropologist Howard Murphy has described how many Koori paintings incorporate a basic geometric template underlying the design; each part of which may encode a series of meanings.

[12:14] Corona Anatine: For example this simple image has two loci of meaning (a) and (b)

[12:15] Corona Anatine: Where a) encodes the meanings:

‘well’ ‘lake’ and ‘vagina’

[12:15] Corona Anatine: while b) encodes the meanings: ‘digging stick ‘ ‘river’ and ‘penis’

Thus three different interpretations are encoded of a well being dug, of a river flowing in or out of a lake, or of a penetrative sexual act.’

[12:16] Corona Anatine: All three of these are valid interpretations

[12:16] Corona Anatine: But each is appropriate in a different social context’

[12:16] Corona Anatine: Moreover the interpretations may be connected with a single mythic sequence:

[12:16] Corona Anatine: When a kangaroo ancestor finished digging a well with a stick, a female wallaby bent down to drink the fresh water, and the kangaroo seized his opportunity to mount her sexually. The semen flowed out of her body and into the waterhole. Today a river flows into the lake at that place and the kangaroo’s penis was transformed into a digging stick which can be seen as a great log beside the lake.

[12:17] Corona Anatine: This illustrates well the problems with the interpretation of prehistoric art, which is fraught with many potential pitfalls.

[12:17] Corona Anatine: To quote Mithen ‘if such simple geometric designs can encode such complexity of meaning and by doing so express the transformational aspects of ancestral beings, then how much complex meaning might underlie simple geometric designs from the Palaeolithic.’

[12:18] Corona Anatine: or more complex images

[12:18] Corona Anatine: many of which are known worldwide

[12:19] Corona Anatine: Many interpretations have been hypothesized

[12:19] Corona Anatine: Iain Hodder for example spends many chapters debating the ‘language’ of chevron patterns and similar markings on pottery, when it is likely that they merely represent an attempt to reproduce basket weave patterns and the appearance of rope on a non woven material, and the actual patterns themselves lack any language of significance. Breaking down prehistoric artwork to that degree of fineness is akin to what James Churchward was doing last century.

[12:20] Corona Anatine: One useful way round this problem is to assess the art from a psychological perspective.’

[12:20] Corona Anatine: Extensive physiological research has shown that one of the main origins of prehistoric imagery is that of entoptic phenomena

[12:21] Corona Anatine: patterns

produced within the brain during trance states, often drug induced.

[12:22] Corona Anatine: Many examples of prehistoric art are explainable as drug imagery, often regardless of what they might actually be depicting.

[12:22] Corona Anatine: Many learned ‘authorities’ preferring exciting and ‘sexy’ meanings such as drugs and warfare, to more mundane and plausible explanations involving agriculture.

For example the Khemigyptian ‘Narmer palette’ is seen as a celebration of warfare and conquest, when stronger evidence indicates that it is more likely to be depicting a pastoral based agricultural scene; the ‘long necked creatures’ have been shown to be depictions of the ‘embodiment of the desert wastes’ being tamed by the king. They are certainly not dinosaurs as the creationists claim.

[12:23] Corona Anatine: A case in point is the [in[famous 'theories' of Von Daniken

[12:23] Corona Anatine: Where they are of genuine items, [which he himself has admitted is not always the case] Erich Von Daniken’s illustrations for his series of books show many pieces of prehistoric art which probably have a drug related theme.

[12:23] Corona Anatine: [lag occurring in chat ]

[12:24] Corona Anatine: an many of the examples he uses have easily explained interpretation

[12:25] Corona Anatine: Clearly sometimes one must rely on context or informed guesswork, to arrive at a conclusion of what the art is meant to represent.

[12:25] Corona Anatine: relating to drug and trance states is shamanism

[12:25] Corona Anatine: Often the imagery has been assessed as relating to Shamanism or shamanic practices

[12:26] Corona Anatine: two examples from daniken illustrate this

[12:26] Corona Anatine: this is the first

[12:27] Corona Anatine: the image of a shaman wearing a ritual mask is more likley than his interpretation of 'aliens'

[12:28] Corona Anatine: another of his also has a likely shamanic explanation

[12:28] Corona Anatine: both are from subsaharan africa

[12:29] Corona Anatine: this one is plausibility the image of a spirit leaving the body during a trance state

[12:30] Corona Anatine: again there is no need to cite alien contact

[12:30] Corona Anatine: tho it does not preclude it admittedly

[12:31] Corona Anatine: Many illustrations of figures said to be of shaman wearing horns exist in prehistoric art

[12:31] Corona Anatine: One shaman figure however;

[12:32] Corona Anatine: that of La Troi Freres, is certainly not of a Shaman. It is probably not even of a human. The figure is often shown in books, sometimes with the nearest figures directly in front.

[12:32] Corona Anatine: this one

[12:32] Corona Anatine: the purple will be explained shortly

[12:33] Corona Anatine: however the image is out of context

[12:33] Corona Anatine: The Frontpiece of DK Bhattacharya (1977) supplies a lot better in the way of a

contextual setting

[12:34] Corona Anatine: thus supplied we can start to deconstruct the image into its five animal components within the engraving that are the important lines relevant to the image.

[12:35] Corona Anatine: Firstly a large superimposed horse is readily apparent in the palimpsest,the presence of which shows that the original artists did not consider a horizontal orientation to be significant.

[12:36] Corona Anatine: in the image the horse is shown in blue

[12:37] Corona Anatine: next

[12:37] Corona Anatine: a large horizontal bison or cow transects the ‘shaman’

[12:37] Corona Anatine: Although this image is very shadowy and probably represents one of the earlier engravings of the palimpsest

[12:37] Corona Anatine: These two large animals eliminate some of the engraved lines within the body

[12:38] Corona Anatine: unfortunately only the horse would upload as the other SL said were too large

[12:38] Corona Anatine: so only the coloured images are possible

[12:38] Corona Anatine: tho i will send any by @ if requested

[12:39] Corona Anatine: within the body of the ‘shaman’ especially the ‘bow’ or ‘nosebleed’ of which so much is made in the literature, concerning transcendental states etc.

[12:39] Corona Anatine: the cow is shown in purple here

[12:39] Corona Anatine: Thirdly a bison directly overlies the front of the figure

[12:39] Corona Anatine: here shown in green

[12:40] Corona Anatine: Eliminating the bison engraving removes a good portion of the leg of the figure

[12:40] Corona Anatine: The last two animals, are; a small bison

[12:41] Corona Anatine: which after removal reveals a small horse

[12:41] Corona Anatine: All that is left of the ‘Shaman figure’, are a few random lines

[12:42] Corona Anatine: [ again they would not upload]

[12:42] Corona Anatine: Some of which may be eyes of other animal figures, and the ‘Shaman’ vanishes

[12:42] Corona Anatine: However the La Troi Freres image is an accident of a palimpsest of engraved lines. Where the images are complete and clearly a single image, the task is easier, if it is bourne in mind that what was depicted is usually an accurate representation of something existing in the common experience of the world;

[12:43] Corona Anatine: so that demolishes one of the sacred cows of the rock art studies

[12:43] Corona Anatine: The key point is that it is unwise to interpret the images in modern terms. If the image were made by minds experiencing a hunter gatherer lifestyle, then that type of society can be used as a basis of comparison.

However; if there was a society with relatively advanced technology, then such a comparison would be invalid.

[12:44] Corona Anatine: Searching for relatively advanced technology in the past is perfectly legitimate, however for an example to be valid all other possible meanings must first be assessed

[12:44] Corona Anatine: and as i have shown even the simplest interpretations can be wrong

[12:45] Corona Anatine: in a future presentation i will show my interpretation of some images

[12:45] Corona Anatine: however i am fully aware it is only one of many possible

[12:45] Corona Anatine: possible

[12:45] Corona Anatine: ok questions

LECTURE NOTICE

2012-01-21T11:53:00.000-08:00

Corona Anatine Lecture on Cave and Rock Art Tomorrow - Sunday Jan 22 @ noonSLT.

Click here for landmark.

Intro Notes for Tuesday Jan 24 Discussion

2012-01-13T12:40:00.001-08:00

Topic: Intervention for the sake of Future Generations

Rupert Read let out a publication titled, "Guardians of the Future: A Constitutional Case for representing and protecting Future People".

In this document he argues for "the creation of a new legislative structure – Guardians of Future Generations."

Find Entire PDF Here: http://goo.gl/mUzG6

The World Future Council let out an interview with the Hungarian Ombudsman for Future Generations:

"Parliamentary commissioners or ombudspersons are elected as independent watchdogs to monitor the protection of human rights as defined in a country’s constitution.

Hungary has four such Ombudspersons and their competencies for intervention vary significantly.

The Parliamentary Commissioner for Future Generations has comparatively strong powers and can stop on-going activities causing severe harm to the environment

or intervene in on-going administrative and court procedures."

http://www.worldfuturecouncil.org/hungarian_ombudsman.html

The idea of these councils is to protect the environment, ensuring that people's of the future are able to exist in a stable, healthy environment.

"If we really feel that the procedures must be halted because otherwise irreversible environmental harm could happen,

then exceptionally we have the right to suspend a permit or authorization of a particular project."

http://www.worldfuturecouncil.org/hungarian_ombudsman.html

Read argues that, roughly, the Guardians’ powers [should] be, on this proposal, at least twofold:

a) To veto in whole or in part new legislation that threatened the basic needs and fundamental interests of future people.

b) To force a review, on petitioning, if appropriate and merited, of any existing legislation that threatens the basic needs and fundamental interests of future people.

c) The Guardians could be given the positive power to initiate legislation.

Do you think a system like this is possible, or beneficial? Is it something that could be monitored effectively, democratically?

If it's plausible, is it a step forward? How would we ensure there was no corruption? What is too much power?

“[Society is] a partnership not only between those who are living, but between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born.”

- Edmund Burke

What do you think? I open the floor.

Tues Jan 10 Reading and Philosophy

2012-01-10T16:42:00.000-08:00

Twelve people showed up for the discussion today, and most were new faces. It lasted for an hour and the conversation was enthusiastic. No reading was done. Thanks to everyone who came! Transcript below:

[09:39] Chraeloos: Hey Ivy!
[09:39] Chraeloos: How are you?
[09:40] Chraeloos: I'm sure you can have proof, we just dont know how to get it yet
[09:40] Chraeloos: Doesn't mean it doesn't exist
[09:40] Ivy Sunkiller: never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts
[09:40] Ivy Sunkiller: Russell
[09:40] Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[09:41] gevroe: there is one way you may can proof
[09:41] Chraeloos: Point taken, Ivy haha
[09:41] Ivy Sunkiller: I looked up the author of the document you have linked on the blog
[09:41] Ivy Sunkiller: on the quantum consciousness
[09:42] Chraeloos: yeah?
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: since I find the concept fascinating
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: he has a talk on TEDx
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: on youtubez
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: quite interesting :)
[09:42] Chraeloos: Oh really? I have no idea!
[09:42] Ivy Sunkiller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8
[09:42] Chraeloos: thanks
[09:43] Ivy Sunkiller: can sit anywhere?
[09:43] Chraeloos: Yep no problem
[09:43] Ivy Sunkiller: yay :)
[09:43] Chraeloos: haha :)
[09:43] Chraeloos: You can get a copy of the intro notes on the stage if you want them
[09:44] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller nods nods
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: I want to touch consciousness in my story
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: well, I already did
[09:45] Chraeloos: How will you approach it?
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: I need to fine tune part 2 and publish it :P
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: I approach it from the engineering pov :)
[09:45] Chraeloos: ah, cool
[09:45] Ivy Sunkiller: sort of ghost-in-the-shell-ish,but not quite
[09:45] gevroe: have you ever heard of standstill operation?
[09:46] Chraeloos: no?
[09:46] gevroe: so this is a way to investigate and prove
[09:46] Ivy Sunkiller: well, gits had "ghosts" that couldn't be copied
[09:46] gevroe: i'll give you two links and you can talk about it with the others
[09:46] Ivy Sunkiller: but could be moved
[09:46] gevroe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standstill_operation
[09:46] gevroe: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html
[09:47] gevroe: standstill operation is a surgery where the patient is cooled down to a point is heart stop beating
[09:47] Ivy Sunkiller: hoy hoy Khan
[09:47] Chraeloos: ah ok
[09:47] Chraeloos: Hey Kannea!
[09:47] gevroe: so is apparently dead
[09:47] Chraeloos: oops, sorry
[09:47] Chraeloos: *Khannea
[09:47] gevroe: and then after the srugery is over he is brought back to life
[09:47] gevroe: and at the second link there is adecripiton of a woman who gont trought that process
[09:47] Khannea Suntzu: Heya maryland girl
[09:47] Chraeloos: That's weird, never heard of that before
[09:47] Chraeloos: Hi Moonlite :)
[09:48] gevroe: and she reported after the surgery that she could see herself floating out of her body
[09:48] Ivy Sunkiller: I think we have gone past the point of believing that consciousness or anything is related to the heart? :p
[09:48] Moonlite: Hi Chraeloos
[09:48] gevroe: and she traveled through that tuunell with the ,light in the end
[09:48] gevroe: and she met there her family relatives that died
[09:48] Ivy Sunkiller: out of body experiences are nice and all
[09:48] Ivy Sunkiller: but they are anecdotal evidence at best
[09:48] Chraeloos: agreed, Ivy.
[09:48] Chraeloos: They are interesting
[09:48] gevroe: no in standstill sugery
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: since works with theories that can be tested and repeated
[09:49] Khannea Suntzu: I want nmy out of body expeienced commercial, predictable and accessible my sony playstation.
[09:49] Moonlite: :)
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: what about people who go through such surgery and don't have an out of body experience?
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: and hey there Moonlite
[09:49] Khannea Suntzu: They get cheated and should ask for a refund.
[09:49] Ivy Sunkiller: and hi there druth
[09:49] Moonlite: Hello Ivy
[09:50] druth Vlodovic: hi
[09:50] Chraeloos: lol guys
[09:50] Ivy Sunkiller: hehehe K
[09:50] Chraeloos: Hi druth!
[09:51] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller just realized she has misspelled science as since
[09:51] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller facedesks
[09:51] Chraeloos: lol, we've all done it, dont worry
[09:51] Khannea Suntzu: Give us some ketamine love, I need me a some tunnel of light experience.
[09:52] Chraeloos: do any of you have something you'd like to read before we philosophize?
[09:52] Khannea Suntzu: Sure gime
[09:53] gevroe: i sent you the story Chraeloos
[09:53] Chraeloos: do you want me to read it aloud?
[09:53] gevroe: no its ok ...
[09:53] gevroe: its part of the competiton
[09:53] Chraeloos: ok
[09:53] gevroe: so i has to be there i guess until the results will be published
[09:53] Chraeloos: yessir
[09:53] Ivy Sunkiller: oh for the sake of it, we are all text?
[09:54] gevroe: yes sir?
[09:54] gevroe: i'm a sir?
[09:54] gevroe: :-)
[09:54] Chraeloos: Hi Spring :)
[09:54] Ivy Sunkiller: the other option is to be a ma'am
[09:54] druth Vlodovic: hey spring
[09:54] sofa cushion whispers: Hi gevroe Resident! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[09:54] Spring Indiawood: Hi Druth
[09:55] Ivy Sunkiller: hey Spring
[09:55] Chraeloos: ...I think we may need a bigger venue shortly lol
[09:55] sofa cushion whispers: Hi Spring Indiawood! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[09:55] Khannea Suntzu: I have a space for youse if you can stomach it. But actually I like these bookclub places a lot myself.
[09:56] Chraeloos: we will hopefully be getting a bigger place soon, we're looking around.
[09:56] Ivy Sunkiller: I can recreate a meeting spot at my place
[09:56] Chraeloos: But thanks for the offer! I'll take you up on it if needed
[09:56] Chraeloos: Hm, well thanks guys I'll let you know if needed, but hopefully not haha we'd like to be self sustained for the most part
[09:57] Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[09:58] druth Vlodovic: is this voice?
[09:58] Chraeloos: Ivy, if you wanted to have your story in a magazine, we'll be releasing one monthly. You could put say, a chapter per month or so?
[09:58] Chraeloos: If anyone wants to share in voice they can, but we haven't started yet
[09:58] druth Vlodovic: ok, thanks
[09:58] Chraeloos: Thanks Khan!
[09:59] Ivy Sunkiller: chapter per month sounds obligatory, but sounds like fun :)
[09:59] Chraeloos: Hi Dakini
[09:59] D A K I N I: hi
[09:59] Chraeloos: It'd just voluntary right now, but we have a fairly wide base of readers for starting out so its up to you
[09:59] Ivy Sunkiller: okies :)
[09:59] Chraeloos: if you do send me an email laurajones@epithetandsynonym.biz
[09:59] Ivy Sunkiller: okies
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: you are going to edit/have someone to edit it?
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: I always feel like my english sucks
[10:00] Chraeloos: if you'd like yeah, or we can publish it as is
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: I had toy to fix the first chapters
[10:00] Chraeloos: up to you
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[10:00] Ivy Sunkiller: I'd like it fixed, hehe
[10:00] Chraeloos: sure!
[10:01] Chraeloos: Ok we'll wait just a few more minutes before we start
[10:02] Khannea Suntzu: I spammed some groups for additional gawkers
[10:02] Khannea Suntzu: Dunno.
[10:03] Chraeloos: Thank you!
[10:04] Ivy Sunkiller: while we are waiting, a practical joke from yesterday
[10:04] Ivy Sunkiller: I got asked
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: - is there something on your mind? (context irrelevant)
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: - yes, consciousness
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: in your mind* even
[10:05] Ivy Sunkiller: :P
[10:05] ChraeloosChraeloos laughs.
[10:05] Chraeloos: Ok I guess we can get started...
[10:06] Chraeloos: Does anyone have anything to read? We usually start the event by sharing our own or other peoples writing.
[10:06] Chraeloos: If you have something you'd like read for you send it my way and I can read it aloud.
[10:07] Ivy Sunkiller: I'm not the usual dweller (yet) so I got nothing :P
[10:07] Chraeloos: If not then we can dive into the discussion, as I think it will be a good one :)
[10:08] Chraeloos: Understandable Ivy haha, I didn't even prepare anything for today
[10:08] Chraeloos: going once...
[10:08] D A K I N I: What sort of material do people usually bring?
[10:08] Khannea SuntzuKhannea Suntzu eats candy and can't say much when devouring candy. Kinda gross actually.
[10:08] Chraeloos: Anything, really
[10:08] Chraeloos: LOL Khannea
[10:08] Chraeloos: fiction, poems
[10:08] Chraeloos: we've had some speeches read
[10:09] Chraeloos: Pardon any typos, it's really cold in here so my hands are not listening to my brain haha
[10:10] Chraeloos: Did you have something you wanted to read Dakini
[10:10] Ivy Sunkiller: whip them into obedience
[10:10] Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[10:10] D A K I N I: sometimes my right and left hemispheres don't coordinate lol
[10:10] Chraeloos: lol ok
[10:10] Chraeloos: Shall we start the discussion then?
[10:10] gevroe: has anayway read a bokk called
[10:11] gevroe: Gödel, Escher, Bach
[10:11] Chraeloos: nope
[10:11] gevroe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach
[10:11] gevroe: well i bought it recently but just started to read
[10:11] gevroe: it is a very thick and complicated book to read
[10:12] Chraeloos: whats it about?
[10:12] gevroe: i dont know yet
[10:12] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller reads on the wiki
[10:12] Chraeloos: lol
[10:12] ChraeloosChraeloos reads the wiki.
[10:12] Chraeloos: looks interesting, actually
[10:12] gevroe: is starts talking about Bach and how he composed one of the most complicated creation he made
[10:13] gevroe: but the book is about mathmatics and art
[10:13] Chraeloos: cool :)
[10:13] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller searches kindle
[10:13] gevroe: i finishde reading not lately the book of sir Ken Robinson
[10:14] Chraeloos: Alright, so I'll start with the intro notes. I'd appreciate it if you held your comment or questions until after as I probably wont see them.
[10:14] gevroe: ok
[10:14] gevroe: :-)
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: Topic: Consciousness and Memory Transfer
[10:14] Ivy Sunkiller: not on kindle :(
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: Cases have been known where children remember exact details from events they shouldn't know anything about.
[10:14] Ivy Sunkiller: there are other books of the author though
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: For instance, there was the boy who remembers WWII details as if he was a pilot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1209795/Reincarnated-Our-son-World-War-II-pilot-come-life.html
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: More examples of children remembering "past lives" here: http://nell-rose.hubpages.com/hub/Past-Lives-The-True-Story-of-The-Children-Who-Have-Lived-Before
[10:14] Chraeloos Resident: It appears as though these children are aware of events, details, etc. that they shouldn't know anything about. Believing that someone can be reincarnated is difficult for scientists to believe or prove.
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: To think that someones spirit, or consciousness, is just floating around in our world is unprovable at this point in our technology, and highly speculative.
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: Some people who have organ transplants claim to get the memories, emotions, etc. of the person who had the organ before them. They call it "memory transference". http://www.namahjournal.com/doc/Actual/Memory-transference-in-organ-transplant-recipients-vol
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: "…[I]t is pertinent to note that apart from miscellaneous information such as gender, age and cause of death, profiles of organ donors are traditionally concealed from their recipients for psychological reasons."
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: "Neuropeptide theory
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: Pharmacologist Candace Pert proposed that neuropeptides which are stored in every cell act as a sort of biochemical correlate of emotion. It was previously thought that emotions resided in the limbic system in the brain.
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: According to Pert, neuropeptides are protein-like messenger molecules released by the brain neurons which flow through the body communicating among the
[10:15] Chraeloos Resident: nervous, immune, endocrine, muscle, and skeletal systems via blood, interstitial fluids and the central nervous system, which are all body fluids.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: At present, about 100 different peptides are known to be released by various populations of neurons in the mammalian brain.
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Neuropeptides have also been found in the heart, which could explain some forms of cellular memories reported by heart transplant recipients (10)."
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Here I bring you to a slightly different topic, quantum consciousness. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff collaborated on a theory they call the "OR model of consciousness". (objective reduction) http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/conscio
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: "Within the OR scheme, we consider that consciousness occurs if an appropriately organized system is able to develop and maintain quantum coherent superposition until a specific "objective" criterion (a threshold related to quantum gravity) is reached; th
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: Cellular Automata
[10:16] Chraeloos Resident: You know what a checkerboard looks like? A bunch of black and white squares? Well, Conway is a mathematician that basically figured out a formula stating that if a white cell has eight cells around it, then if it is given a rule saying that 3 of those cel
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: If every cell was given that rule, it would seem as though patterns were moving across the board as they changed. They'd never settle and become still. Basically this is applied to cells, mostly seen in computer memory.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: However it is found in biological cells as well; like in snails shells the patterns are due to this cellular automata. So, these "rules" have also been found in neural tissue. Penrose and Hameroff believe that this is the cause of consciousness, or self-a
[10:17] Chraeloos: wareness
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: In that case, if these cells are moving and changing all the time, at speeds completely undefinable, then they would take time to slow down and finally stop, causing consciousness to end.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Meaning, after death, humans are still conscious. Especially since it takes a little while for the actual cells to die, and the DNA never does. It could be minutes, or hours for all we know, before consciousness stops.
[10:17] Chraeloos Resident: Oxygen flow is what causes brain activity and from there every other kind of process in our bodies. But even after oxygen stops flowing, it takes a little while (not sure exactly how long, varies from person to person as well) for everything to suffocate.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: So, these cells could continue going for a very long time before they finally die, if they do.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: However, Hameroff, being an anesthesiologist, has "shown that when people are put under for surgery their tubulin dimers fall into a neutral state -- instead of being black or white, they all sort of become gray.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: When they do that, consciousness goes off; when they start behaving as cellular automata again, consciousness comes back on."
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: Memory Transference
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: For the past decade, in experiments with mice, rats and even lowly flatworms, a number of researchers have claimed success in transferring learning or memory between organisms, usually by feeding or injecting one animal with the brain extract from another
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: Those claims have never been completely accepted, however, because other scientists were not always able to duplicate the experiments, and no one could identify the exact nature of the so-called "memory molecules" necessary for such a transfer.
[10:18] Chraeloos Resident: Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,876854,00.html#ixzz1j04RFwr3
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: They are admitting that there would need to be some sort of physical form that the memories would need to exist in. They have not yet identified these, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: What if memory could be transferred between organisms? When people die, if their bodies are left to disintegrate, they break down and get absorbed into the soil.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: The plants grow from the soil, and are eaten by the animals (which could be human), and the humans eat the animals.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: From this one can assume that the cells of the deceased could be absorbed into the bodies of the living.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: If memory is stored in active cells or neuropeptides within the cells, they could be stored long enough, based on the cellular automata theory, to be passed on to the other human being.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: This could explain why humans have the ability to learn from such a young age. It could explain why we seem to have a general set of knowledge from the time we are babies. How we know how to grow, talk, acknowledge objects, etc.
[10:19] Chraeloos Resident: It could even describe why these children from all over the world have vivid memories of things they should know nothing about.
[10:20] Chraeloos Resident: What do you think? I open the floor.
[10:20] Chraeloos Resident: [ you have reached the end of the current notecard - resetting to first line... ]
[10:20] D A K I N I: you covered a lot of ground here
[10:20] Ivy Sunkiller: quite a lot, happily read all that before :)
[10:20] Khannea Suntzu: I am pretty cautious with all this, for personal reasons. Why? Because this is very difficult to me. All this is all arguments of storing the essential constituents of me, the actual me, as persistent and retrievable components. I have become cautious of this as I regard this as wishful thinking. I hate death. I really hate death. But what I hate more is anything condoning, glorifying or making death "a sentiental myth". I can'; bear death but I also can't bear the glamorization of death.
[10:20] Chraeloos: Yes, sorry. There's a lot to cover
[10:21] D A K I N I: i for one believe in past lives or some may say parellel lives...
[10:21] Chraeloos: Khannea, this isn't stating that you'd be aware of "moving on" necessarily.
[10:21] D A K I N I: i have experienced past life regression myself but even more interesting was the life between life experience
[10:21] Ivy Sunkiller: I think there are really two problems to tackle
[10:21] Chraeloos: Oh really Dakini? That's fascinating.
[10:21] D A K I N I: but if you would rather concentrate on the current one
[10:22] D A K I N I: i can give one minor example of something that happened
[10:22] Ivy Sunkiller: there is a huge difference between memory presisting after death, and consciousness doing so
[10:22] Chraeloos: Hi Farv, you just missed the intro, pick up a copy of the notes on the stage if you'dl ike
[10:22] D A K I N I: as a child i learned to crochet
[10:22] Ivy Sunkiller: hey hey Farv
[10:22] D A K I N I: many years later
[10:22] D A K I N I: i couldn't remember how to do it
[10:22] D A K I N I: but wanted to make a friend a gift for her new baby
[10:22] D A K I N I: i picked up the hook and thread
[10:22] D A K I N I: and my hands remembered what my memory didn't remember
[10:23] D A K I N I: i made that gift
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: aka muscle memory
[10:23] D A K I N I: yes
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: I get that often with keybinds, haha
[10:23] Chraeloos: True Ivy, about the memory vs. consciousness
[10:23] D A K I N I: that may be something different though
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: I couldn't recall what the keybinds to belnder are
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: but when I reinstalled it and started using it
[10:23] Ivy Sunkiller: it all came back
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: it's more likely that the memory is still there in the brain
[10:24] gevroe: so maybe there is a connectoini between memory and movement
[10:24] Chraeloos: Same with piano and flute playing for me
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: it's that you can't reach it with just thinking
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: yes yes
[10:24] D A K I N I: so from what you read... it seems apparent each of us have memories stored in cells other than what we can recall in memory
[10:24] Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Violet
[10:25] Chraeloos: Hi Violet :) Intro notes are on the stage
[10:25] Violet: Hi Ivy, everyone :)
[10:25] Ivy Sunkiller: I think we have memories stored in synapses rather than cells, but I could be wrong :)
[10:25] D A K I N I: that would be one level referred to
[10:25] Chraeloos: or neuropeptides
[10:25] D A K I N I: well.. my hands knew how to complete the tasks
[10:26] gevroe: I saw once a tv show that talked about the future that we would be able to copy brains connections
[10:26] D A K I N I: my mind was very suprised
[10:26] Chraeloos: Dakini, with regards to different memories stored in cells not necessarily. Is it maybe that our brains just can't access everything? The connection is there just not available?
[10:26] D A K I N I: i don't know
[10:26] gevroe: and so cause einstein brain is in a jar ...they would be able to copy is personality to a computer and we can talk again with einstien
[10:26] Ivy Sunkiller: might be neuropeptides, we used to believe that the functions of DNA were held by proteins since they seem to be much more complex
[10:26] Khannea Suntzu: I am in denial. It's like I do not want to affirm this, it opens such a can of worms for me.
[10:27] D A K I N I: not an expert in such things.. but i find personal experience to be my guidpost
[10:27] Chraeloos: For everyone, Khannea haha
[10:27] D A K I N I: so did the concept of space travel once upon a time
[10:27] Chraeloos: I read about that Ivy, just the other day haha
[10:27] D A K I N I: or even flying
[10:27] Ivy Sunkiller: there was a TED talk about consciousness recently
[10:28] Chraeloos: Antonio Damasio?
[10:28] D A K I N I: it seems vital that we expand our minds in order to grow
[10:28] Khannea Suntzu: Trust me not being able to fly really sucks when no one can do it. Then when someone can and shows other people how to make it reproducible makes it suck considerably less.
[10:28] D A K I N I: we can't know the edges of our potential if we don't expand
[10:28] Ivy Sunkiller: sorry, I don't have memory for names, checking facts now :)
[10:29] Chraeloos: no problem
[10:29] Khannea Suntzu: I hate limits.
[10:29] druth Vlodovic: actually I think that consciousness is only one function of our minds, so not being able to recall something doesn't mean it isn't there, just that that function isn't compatible with it
[10:29] Ivy Sunkiller: yus, that's the one Chraeloos
[10:29] Chraeloos: haha Khannea, someone push you off a cliff, then again with a parachute?
[10:29] Khannea Suntzu: Parachutes were invented after flight.
[10:29] Chraeloos: I know, thats what I mean haha
[10:30] Chraeloos: Good talk, Ivy, his book is just as good
[10:30] Farv Hallison: Our brains would have to be very much larger to hold all the memories that would allow us to recognize things in a higher dimensioanl space.
[10:30] Khannea Suntzu: In my dreams I can fly. When I do I feel sad I can't in real life.
[10:30] Khannea Suntzu: In my dreams I meet up with a dead friend. Waking up is something tnat is about as unbearable as having a nail hammered in my hand/.
[10:31] Chraeloos: Not necessarily larger, Farv.
[10:31] Chraeloos: Just more capable?
[10:31] Chraeloos: Understandable Khannea
[10:31] gevroe: do you think that just as in computer world we human also connect to a cloud memory?
[10:31] Ivy Sunkiller: or quantum, then they can hold pretty much anything :)
[10:31] D A K I N I: itsn't it about nural pathways rather than size?
[10:32] gevroe: in cloud memory we can store memories instead in our minds
[10:32] Chraeloos: yes Dakini, I think so
[10:32] Chraeloos: How would someone "tap in" to this cloud memory, gevroe?
[10:32] Violet: Hi Philippe
[10:32] Chraeloos: Hello Philippe
[10:32] Ivy Sunkiller: males have bigger brains than woman, but not more complex when it comes to number of neurons and synapses, females are more "packed" :)
[10:32] Ivy Sunkiller: hello Philippe
[10:33] Farv Hallison: hehe, more staked, too.
[10:33] Chraeloos: Good to know, Ivy ;)
[10:33] Farv Hallison: stacked.
[10:33] D A K I N I: some men are brilliant.. more so than women
[10:33] D A K I N I: we can't paint everyone with the same brush
[10:33] Chraeloos: of course Dakini
[10:33] Ivy Sunkiller: let's not go to that route Dakini, just wanted to point out that the size doesn't matter (pun intended)
[10:33] D A K I N I: i think its individual
[10:33] ChraeloosChraeloos chuckles.
[10:34] D A K I N I: :-)
[10:34] gevroe: well i understood that Carl Jung as opposed to Sigmund Freud talked abot collective uncounciousness
[10:34] Chraeloos: Yes he did
[10:34] gevroe: so it is a kind of cloud memory
[10:34] gevroe: :-)
[10:34] Ivy Sunkiller: collective UNconsciousness?
[10:34] gevroe: i saw a tv show about twins
[10:34] Ivy Sunkiller: what would that be/
[10:34] Ivy Sunkiller: ?*
[10:35] Chraeloos: Not exactly, gevroe. It's involuntary according to Jung
[10:35] gevroe: and those twins could connect and feel each other even if they werent at the same place
[10:35] Farv Hallison: We revel in the communication we have through messsages in spacetime.
[10:35] Chraeloos: Essentially what the discussion is about, Ivy haha.
[10:35] gevroe: ok
[10:35] Ivy Sunkiller: okay!
[10:35] Chraeloos: Many twins can do that, it's fascinating
[10:35] Violet: Jung's collective unconscious could just as well be instinctual; all the stuff that's "hard wired" into the human experience
[10:35] Chraeloos: What do you think, is collective unconscious possible?
[10:35] D A K I N I: i read something once.. they did an experiment
[10:36] gevroe: so that is a way to claim that there is some sort of another way to communicate
[10:36] Chraeloos: Agreed Violet
[10:36] gevroe: and so why not to assume that we might communicate with a cyber space of thoughts throuh our mins
[10:36] gevroe: minds
[10:36] gevroe: wihtout noticing it
[10:36] gevroe: that is how we dream also
[10:36] Chraeloos: how do you prove that, gevroe?
[10:36] Ivy Sunkiller: if (and that's a big IF) our brains are indeed quantum machines, then twins feelings could be easily explained with quantum entanglement
[10:37] D A K I N I: where they took a drop of blood and divided it in 2.. one they kept in the research lab.. the other half they took somewhere else. they they exposed the one half to electrodes and at thet same moment the slide with the other half of the drop of blood reacted the same as the one they kept in the original lab
[10:37] Chraeloos: oooh quantum entanglement. Care to explain Ivy?
[10:37] gevroe: well i can say about my mother that dreamed of a family member that was injured in war
[10:37] gevroe: and she didnt know that it actually happened
[10:37] Ivy Sunkiller: yus, quantum entanglement is a phenomena where two particles can resonate with one another
[10:38] Ivy Sunkiller: regardless of distance
[10:38] gevroe: and the day later she was informed that what happened in the dream actually took place
[10:38] Farv Hallison: we are fixated on communicating with each other through spacetime because that is how we have been taught to appreciate the world.
[10:38] Ivy Sunkiller: it was recently done with milimeter scale diamonds in normal room environment, quite amazing
[10:38] Chraeloos: They called it the EPR paradox, freaked Einstein right out
[10:38] Chraeloos: Neat gevroe
[10:38] Ivy Sunkiller: yeah, Einstein had a nice name for it
[10:39] gevroe: there are many reports like that
[10:39] Ivy Sunkiller: "odd activity on distance" or something along those lines
[10:39] Chraeloos: "spooky"
[10:39] Chraeloos: XD
[10:39] Violet: Spooky action :)
[10:39] Ivy Sunkiller: that! :)
[10:39] Chraeloos: Good point Farv, is it habit?
[10:39] Chraeloos: They did create it? I didn't know that
[10:39] Chraeloos: er, not create it, you know what I mean
[10:40] Chraeloos: Are our brains stuck in the habit of how we use them?
[10:40] Ivy Sunkiller: we evolved as a space-time biological machines, so it's only natural we think and communicate in those terms
[10:40] Khannea Suntzu: I hear all these things and what can I say - anecdotes? Pattern recognition run amok? Wishful thinking? Overly imaginative? Fringe science? Bunk? How can I make such discrediting claims... but worse... how can I NOT do so?
[10:40] D A K I N I: is it really possible we are limited by our beliefs
[10:40] gevroe: there is a story in the bible
[10:40] Ivy Sunkiller: Chraeloos: well we learn by practice after all, don't we?
[10:41] Chraeloos: very true
[10:41] Chraeloos: Khannea, if you were asked to prove that our consciousness lived on after death, how would you do it?
[10:41] gevroe: when two of the israelites had the ability of Moses as a prophets
[10:41] Violet: “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.”
[10:41] Chraeloos: Or that our memories were "transferrable"
[10:42] Chraeloos: ?
[10:42] gevroe: and Joshua was worried about that
[10:42] gevroe: but Moses said to him that he wish all could havfe that ability
[10:42] gevroe: so there is some ability here
[10:42] Chraeloos: Is that proof, gevroe?
[10:42] gevroe: that only some people poses
[10:43] gevroe: i dont know if it is a proof
[10:43] Ivy Sunkiller: the reason why I'm generally not fascinated about having any sort of consciousness after death is that consciousness without memory would lack identity (duh Ghost in the Shell again)
[10:43] gevroe: all we discuss in this cases are case studies
[10:43] Chraeloos: Right Ivy
[10:43] gevroe: no proofs
[10:43] Chraeloos: why not try, gevroe?
[10:43] gevroe: what about Edgar Cayce
[10:44] Chraeloos: But if memory was storied in cells, on an "individual" type basis, so say one memory per cell, it could explain a lot
[10:44] Chraeloos: It's as if pieces of us were out there always?
[10:44] Chraeloos: I was waiting for him to come up haha
[10:44] Ivy Sunkiller: it could, but I have very serious doubts about that :)
[10:44] Chraeloos: agreed, but why not?
[10:44] gevroe: the first surgery that made use of a nail to attach bones was done after he got a message about it
[10:44] Ivy Sunkiller: any evidence to back it up seems to be anecdotal
[10:44] Chraeloos: true, but thats how new ideas are born, is it not?
[10:45] gevroe: even thomas edisson consulted him
[10:45] gevroe: yes,.. from where new ideas come from?
[10:45] gevroe: :-)
[10:45] gevroe: if you all know the song of the beatles "across the universe"
[10:45] D A K I N I: divine inspiration is what i call it
[10:45] gevroe: well that song was composed when john lenon woke up in the middle of night
[10:45] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller tries to resist making HTW puns
[10:46] gevroe: with the song in his mind ..so he wrote it together with the tune
[10:46] gevroe: and went to sleep
[10:46] gevroe: so?
[10:46] Violet: haha
[10:46] Ivy Sunkiller: I knew Violet would get that one, hehe
[10:46] Violet: Yeah :)
[10:46] Chraeloos: So, basically, we're all frightened by the thought of any sort of life, consciousness, memory transference, after death?
[10:47] Ivy Sunkiller: ideas are a result of the thinking process
[10:47] D A K I N I: i'm not
[10:47] Ivy Sunkiller: the problem is
[10:47] Chraeloos: Each of these things are very different, though. They imply very different things
[10:47] Ivy Sunkiller: we don't really know what thinking *is*
[10:47] Chraeloos: BINGO
[10:47] gevroe: right
[10:47] gevroe: yesterday i saw a tv show about a DID girl
[10:47] Violet: I'm not; I have no idea what to expect, at death
[10:47] gevroe: she has 30 personalities in one person
[10:47] Chraeloos: Of course, none of us do, do we?
[10:47] D A K I N I: i experienced a past life death
[10:48] Chraeloos: How do you know each death with be the same, Dakini?
[10:48] gevroe: Dissociative identity disorder
[10:48] D A K I N I: and was freed at death into something so beautiful
[10:48] D A K I N I: i no longer fear death
[10:48] Ivy Sunkiller: if you have experienced death, shouldn't you be, well, dead? :)
[10:48] D A K I N I: i fear living in pain
[10:48] Chraeloos: as we all do
[10:48] D A K I N I: it was a past life regression
[10:48] D A K I N I: i'm reincarnated lol
[10:49] Ivy Sunkiller: oooookay
[10:49] Ivy SunkillerIvy Sunkiller slides her beanbag chair to the left
[10:49] gevroe: i once paid 10$ to a site of an astrololical informationi
[10:49] D A K I N I: aaaahhahaha
[10:49] Chraeloos: Hey play nice
[10:49] gevroe: and they told me that i made all the reincarnation i need
[10:49] gevroe: and now i'm in the last one
[10:49] Ivy Sunkiller: sorry :)
[10:49] D A K I N I: better move to the other side of the room
[10:49] D A K I N I: there's lots more
[10:49] Chraeloos: lol
[10:49] D A K I N I: and i don't care if i scare anyone
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: oh it takes more to scare me
[10:50] D A K I N I: i love pushing the envelope
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: it's interesting
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: but it's hardly useful
[10:50] D A K I N I: i disagree
[10:50] Ivy Sunkiller: again, anecdotal evidence :)
[10:50] D A K I N I: i think challenging limitations is very useful
[10:51] Ivy Sunkiller: challenging is nice, but as evidence it's not useful :)
[10:51] Chraeloos: So, do you think memories can be transferred, in any means, after death?
[10:51] Ivy Sunkiller: well, not for us who have no such experience (or don't claim to have one)
[10:51] Violet: I think it's useful to explore states of consciousness.....but objectivity is impossible, so it needs a different approach
[10:51] D A K I N I: so if someone wrote a book on it.. called it fact you would then believe it?
[10:51] gevroe: no
[10:52] gevroe: you can say .. it is interestinig
[10:52] gevroe: just as sightings of UFO's
[10:52] Chraeloos: What kind of approach Violet?
[10:52] Ivy Sunkiller: it would be an interesting book on anecdotal evidence :)
[10:52] gevroe: has anyone once saw a UFO?
[10:52] Violet: That's something I've tried sussing out for years, Chraeloos :)
[10:52] Chraeloos: I'm curious to know how we could prove it one way or another.
[10:52] Chraeloos: Indeed Violet.
[10:53] Chraeloos: I wonder if our minds just can't grasp it at this point
[10:53] Chraeloos: I find it interesting that none of us have been able to supply anything other than anecdotal evidence.
[10:53] Ivy Sunkiller: I think they can't yet
[10:53] gevroe: there is one scientific clue anyway
[10:53] Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy
[10:53] Ivy Sunkiller: but we are getting closer
[10:53] Ivy Sunkiller: :)
[10:53] gevroe: and it is water crystals
[10:53] Chraeloos: hopefully, Ivy haha
[10:54] D A K I N I: well what about the children who know things they can't know
[10:54] D A K I N I: details
[10:54] gevroe: there is a japanes art that took pictures of water crystals that were influenced by thoughts
[10:54] D A K I N I: that have been recorded
[10:54] D A K I N I: Dr Emoto
[10:54] Ivy Sunkiller: what about people that talk to god, or people who have been miraculously cured, or....
[10:54] gevroe: http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/
[10:54] Violet: I think consciousness is pretty much an irreducible mystery; we can learn more about how our brains and senses function, but then the thing that's learning is still so fundamental to the concept of existence that all we can really do for sure is gawk
[10:54] gevroe: that is the linke
[10:55] gevroe: that is a link
[10:55] D A K I N I: he proves that water is conscious
[10:55] Chraeloos: ...at this point in time, Violet
[10:56] gevroe: i think that he proves that a thoughts are in a dimensioni that we yet cant prove or see
[10:56] Chraeloos: Ah, time, I degress. Always back to linear or not.
[10:56] Chraeloos: Prove is a strong word
[10:56] D A K I N I: :-)
[10:56] Chraeloos: Has anyone been able to replicate the experiment?
[10:56] Ivy Sunkiller: hardly anything is ever proved
[10:56] Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy
[10:56] Ivy Sunkiller: and if it's proved, it's using some axioms
[10:57] gevroe: our thoughts can take place out of our minds
[10:57] ChraeloosChraeloos raises an eyebrow.
[10:57] Chraeloos: Interesting
[10:57] Violet: I think as long as there are things with awareness, there will be that mystery though; awareness and existence are pretty tangled up
[10:57] Chraeloos: agreed
[10:58] gevroe: and maybe our mental health demand that we should stick with reality as we understand it
[10:58] gevroe: at least when it comes with meeeting with psychiatrists
[10:58] Chraeloos: Alright, well the hours up so if you need to leave feel free
[10:58] gevroe: :-)
[10:58] Ivy Sunkiller: I like the other approach to understanding consciousness, one thing is trying to learn how it works (mostly by reverse engineering the brain, so to speak, and we are getting better at that!)
[10:58] Ivy Sunkiller: the other is trying to actually create consciousness
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: and the fun thing is, we don't have to know how consciousness works, or what it is even, to make it
[10:59] Violet: Hi Karlingo
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: hello Karlingo
[10:59] gevroe: Hi
[10:59] D A K I N I: its been interesting
[10:59] Chraeloos: Agreed Ivy, but of course its all based on things we need to believe we experienced
[10:59] Karlingo Lorefield: PLEASE tell me i just didnt land on a person?????
[10:59] Chraeloos: Hi Karl
[10:59] D A K I N I: maybe i'll stop by another time
[10:59] Karlingo Lorefield: Hi there :)
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: nope, just carpet
[10:59] Violet: You're good, Karlingo
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: I think
[10:59] Chraeloos: lol Karl, you're safe
[10:59] Ivy Sunkiller: :p
[10:59] Karlingo Lorefield: phew
[10:59] Violet: Hi Rhi
[10:59] Chraeloos: Hey Rhia!
[11:00] Ivy Sunkiller: heyo Rhi
[11:00] Chraeloos: Hopefully Dakini :)
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: hI cHRAEe!
[11:00] Spring Indiawood: sorry I have to go
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: hI vI; HI iVY
[11:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: sORRY i'M late.
[11:00] Chraeloos: No problem
[11:00] Ivy Sunkiller: left to A on keyboard Rhi :)
[11:00] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
Thanks for coming!

Topic for Tuesday Jan. 10 Discussion

2012-01-09T14:00:00.000-08:00

I'm going to start posting the topics for the tuesday discussions ahead of time so that people can get prepared to debate. Also, if you can't make it, you at least know what you're missing! The discussions take place at 10amSLT at the E&S Cafe. See you there!

Topic: Consciousness and Memory Transfer

Cases have been known where children remember exact details from events they shouldn't know anything about.

For instance, there was the boy who remembers WWII details as if he was a pilot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1209795/Reincarnated-Our-son-World-War-II-pilot-come-life.html

More examples of children remembering "past lives" here: http://nell-rose.hubpages.com/hub/Past-Lives-The-True-Story-of-The-Children-Who-Have-Lived-Before

It appears as though these children are aware of events, details, etc. that they shouldn't know anything about. Believing that someone can be reincarnated is difficult for scientists to believe or prove.

To think that someones spirit, or consciousness, is just floating around in our world is unprovable at this point in our technology, and highly speculative.

Some people who have organ transplants claim to get the memories, emotions, etc. of the person who had the organ before them. They call it "memory transference". http://www.namahjournal.com/doc/Actual/Memory-transference-in-organ-transplant-recipients-vol-19-iss-1.html

"…[I]t is pertinent to note that apart from miscellaneous information such as gender, age and cause of death, profiles of organ donors are traditionally concealed from their recipients for psychological reasons."

"Neuropeptide theory

Pharmacologist Candace Pert proposed that neuropeptides which are stored in every cell act as a sort of biochemical correlate of emotion. It was previously thought that emotions resided in the limbic system in the brain.

According to Pert, neuropeptides are protein-like messenger molecules released by the brain neurons which flow through the body communicating among the

nervous, immune, endocrine, muscle, and skeletal systems via blood, interstitial fluids and the central nervous system, which are all body fluids.

At present, about 100 different peptides are known to be released by various populations of neurons in the mammalian brain.

Neuropeptides have also been found in the heart, which could explain some forms of cellular memories reported by heart transplant recipients (10)."

Here I bring you to a slightly different topic, quantum consciousness. Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff collaborated on a theory they call the "OR model of consciousness". (objective reduction) http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/consciousevents.html

"Within the OR scheme, we consider that consciousness occurs if an appropriately organized system is able to develop and maintain quantum coherent superposition until a specific "objective" criterion (a threshold related to quantum gravity) is reached; the coherent system then self-reduces."

Cellular Automata

You know what a checkerboard looks like? A bunch of black and white squares? Well, Conway is a mathematician that basically figured out a formula stating that if a white cell has eight cells around it, then if it is given a rule saying that 3 of those cells are white then it needs to turn black.

If every cell was given that rule, it would seem as though patterns were moving across the board as they changed. They'd never settle and become still. Basically this is applied to cells, mostly seen in computer memory.

However it is found in biological cells as well; like in snails shells the patterns are due to this cellular automata. So, these "rules" have also been found in neural tissue. Penrose and Hameroff believe that this is the cause of consciousness, or self-awareness.

In that case, if these cells are moving and changing all the time, at speeds completely undefinable, then they would take time to slow down and finally stop, causing consciousness to end.

Meaning, after death, humans are still conscious. Especially since it takes a little while for the actual cells to die, and the DNA never does. It could be minutes, or hours for all we know, before consciousness stops.

Oxygen flow is what causes brain activity and from there every other kind of process in our bodies. But even after oxygen stops flowing, it takes a little while (not sure exactly how long, varies from person to person as well) for everything to suffocate.

So, these cells could continue going for a very long time before they finally die, if they do.

However, Hameroff, being an anesthesiologist, has "shown that when people are put under for surgery their tubulin dimers fall into a neutral state -- instead of being black or white, they all sort of become gray.

When they do that, consciousness goes off; when they start behaving as cellular automata again, consciousness comes back on."

Memory Transference

For the past decade, in experiments with mice, rats and even lowly flatworms, a number of researchers have claimed success in transferring learning or memory between organisms, usually by feeding or injecting one animal with the brain extract from another.

Those claims have never been completely accepted, however, because other scientists were not always able to duplicate the experiments, and no one could identify the exact nature of the so-called "memory molecules" necessary for such a transfer.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,876854,00.html#ixzz1j04RFwr3

They are admitting that there would need to be some sort of physical form that the memories would need to exist in. They have not yet identified these, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

What if memory could be transferred between organisms? When people die, if their bodies are left to disintegrate, they break down and get absorbed into the soil.

The plants grow from the soil, and are eaten by the animals (which could be human), and the humans eat the animals.

From this one can assume that the cells of the deceased could be absorbed into the bodies of the living.

If memory is stored in active cells or neuropeptides within the cells, they could be stored long enough, based on the cellular automata theory, to be passed on to the other human being.

This could explain why humans have the ability to learn from such a young age. It could explain why we seem to have a general set of knowledge from the time we are babies. How we know how to grow, talk, acknowledge objects, etc.

It could even describe why these children from all over the world have vivid memories of things they should know nothing about.

What do you think? I open the floor.

Corona Anatine Lecture Jan 8, 2012

2012-01-08T13:34:00.000-08:00

Corona presented her theory that two books of the bible relate to astronomy, specifically constellations, and that many of the descriptions can be described as astronomical events. It was a good turnout with seven people who came, and everyone stayed right till the end. She will be presenting a lecture next Sunday, Jan 15 at noonSLT, at the online E&S Cafe.

Completely unedited transcript below:

[11:36] myxtc: greetings, sweet souls :-)
[11:37] myxtc: will it be in voice?
[11:37] Chraeloos: Hello everyone Morally Reprehensible, myxtic :)
[11:37] Chraeloos: Nope, in local chat
[11:37] MorallyReprehensible: Hello
[11:37] myxtc: great!
[11:37] Chraeloos: Have a seat wherever you like, she should be here shortly
[11:38] myxtc: i shall be afk but would like to catch the local chat to read later, if thats ok :-)
[11:39] Chraeloos: No problem
[11:39] myxtc: thanks :-)
[11:39] myxtc: afk
[11:42] No room to sit here, try another spot.
[11:53] Chraeloos: Hi Corona :)
[11:54] Can't reposition -- permission denied
[11:59] Corona Anatine: hi
[12:00] Corona Anatine: I wil bring them down when right time
[12:00] Chraeloos: Alright :)
[12:01] *SandBrocade II Ottoman Blk Pld whispers: Hi Corona Anatine! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[12:02] Chraeloos: Hi Rhia! how are you?
[12:02] Corona Anatine: ok i wil sit here as i need to cam the images
[12:02] Chraeloos: sure
[12:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: Chrae, good, but freezing; that rain is cold. lo
[12:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: lol
[12:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: Hi Karl, MOrally, Corona
[12:02] Chraeloos: Sorry haha, it has a mind of its own
[12:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: Hi Zo!
[12:02] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bryce should be along soon too
[12:02] Corona Anatine: ok i had best begin 0 i wil give it 5 mins the open
[12:02] Zobeid Zuma: Hii
[12:02] Chraeloos: Hello Zo :)
[12:02] Chraeloos: Alright
[12:03] Bryce Galbraith: hi all
[12:03] Chraeloos: Hi Bryce :)
[12:03] Corona Anatine: Hi all
[12:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: ok, Corona
[12:03] Bryce Galbraith: Rehi Zobeid :)
[12:04] sofa cushion whispers: Hi Zobeid Zuma! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[12:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, Chrae, the fire seems about to go out
[12:04] Chraeloos: uhoh, lets see what I can do about that
[12:04] Object whispers: sorry, you are not permitted to change fire settings
[12:04] Object whispers: sorry, you are not permitted to change fire settings
[12:04] Rhiannon of the Birds: I'd appreciate it, i'm dripping wet here
[12:05] Rhiannon of the Birds: Corona, where do you want us?
[12:05] Chraeloos: There we go :)
[12:06] Corona Anatine: where ever suits
[12:06] *SandBrocade II Ottoman Blk Pld whispers: Hi Rhiannon Dragoone! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[12:06] Corona Anatine: i will be rotating the items
[12:06] Corona Anatine: and people need to see them or at least cam
[12:06] Rhiannon of the Birds: I'' sit by the fire, at least 'till I dry off
[12:06] Zobeid Zuma: items?
[12:06] Chraeloos: The big black things on the stage
[12:06] Corona Anatine: also im not sure whcih way the cubes are facing
[12:07] Zobeid Zuma: Ah!
[12:07] Corona Anatine: so there may be apuses while i adjust scenary
[12:07] Corona Anatine: pauses
[12:08] Chraeloos: Hello Gilles :)
[12:08] Corona Anatine: hi Gilles
[12:08] Gilles Kuhn: Hoooooowls!!
[12:08] Rhiannon of the Birds: Hi Gilles!
[12:08] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Gilles
[12:09] Rhiannon of the Birds: mystic, you're a cloud
[12:09] Corona Anatine: ok lets start - sL is being a bit laggy so agian there might be pauses
[12:09] Chraeloos: Ok
[12:09] Rhiannon of the Birds: ok
[12:09] sofa cushion whispers: Hi Gilles Kuhn! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[12:10] Corona Anatine: ok the night sky
[12:10] Corona Anatine: on the right is the constellation
[12:11] Corona Anatine: on the left the dendera zodiac
[12:11] Corona Anatine: of which more in a while
[12:12] Corona Anatine: The stars of the night sky
Among which lie the constellations, the elliptic plane on which the planets move forming the band of the zodiac
Attached to which are several legends and myths.
[12:12] Corona Anatine: The presentation looks at a possible connection between the zodiac and two pieces from the bible
Specifically
The book of revelations and the book of Ezekiel
[12:12] Corona Anatine: It is possible the whole thing was based upon a dream or hallucination
John mentions wormwood – an ingredient of absinthe and possibly the source of part of his vision
However a vision has to have something to build from
[12:13] Corona Anatine: However both prophets refer to the same thing, and as there is nearly 1000 years between them it is unliklly that they could have had an identical ‘vision’ unless it was of something that exists in the real world that both could witness
As will be shown this is the case
[12:13] Corona Anatine: And I will show that the visions they relate have nothing to do with either ‘God’ except in the minds of the relating ‘prophets’ and modern followers of xianity, or with JF Blumrich’s ‘alien helicopters’.

This dosent mean they cant have those connections – however I can offer a simpler explanation.
[12:14] Gilles Kuhn: may i ask to what part of ezechiel and john you are refering to? or perhaps you will disclose that further
[12:15] Corona Anatine: the vision chapter of ez and the vision imagery of john
[12:15] Corona Anatine: The connection is the chadeans
A culture of the Babylonian in the area who took the israelites captive

A culture with a significant interest in stellar observation

The culture mythology had four genii who supported the four corners of the world, or were its four guardians etc

The chaldean genii had clearly described mythic imagery
[12:15] Corona Anatine: Sed-Alap or Kirub [cherub] represented as a bull with a human head
Lamas or Nigal – a lion with a human head
Ustar had a human likeness
And
Nattig with the head of an eagle
[12:16] Corona Anatine: the image on the right being an example
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Ezek 1:10 as for the likeness of their faces,
they four had the face of a man,
and the face of a lion – on the right side. [the lion faced right]
And they four had the face of an ox on the left side. [the ox faced left]
They four also had the face of an eagle.
[12:16] Corona Anatine: Chaldean
[12:17] Corona Anatine: Compare with revelations
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal. [milky way ?]:and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes [stars] before and behind. [The throne being the pole star, the four beasts are constellations.]
[12:17] Gilles Kuhn: indeed and apart of the angel too the symbols of three of the four evangelist
[12:17] Corona Anatine: lol those are soem assocaiations yes
[12:18] Corona Anatine: i know littel of xian symbolism
[12:18] Corona Anatine: The first beast was like a lion Leo [7pm ]
The second beast like a calf Taurus [3pm ]
The third beast had a face as a man Aquarius [1pm]
The fourth beast was like a flying eagle Cygnus?

And the four beasts had each of them six wings, and they were full of eyes within:
Which I think is a reference to the stars seen as eyes during the trance vision
[12:18] Rhiannon of the Birds: Interesting nterpretation; never thought o JOhn as star gazing beffore
[12:19] Corona Anatine: now ty for bring up xian symbolism becaus ethere is anothe link which is at a slight tangent to the mani items here
[12:20] Corona Anatine: but which however may have direct relevance to revelations text
[12:20] Corona Anatine: we know there is a link between christ and soalr mythology
[12:20] Corona Anatine: and
[12:20] Gilles Kuhn: (actually the four beast then correspond perfectly on the four symbols for the four evangelist which is extremely interesting
[12:20] Corona Anatine: revelatiosn talks of the beast 666
[12:21] Corona Anatine: well that is the number o fthe zodaical sqaure of the sun
[12:21] Corona Anatine: which is the sqaure shown on the left
[12:21] Corona Anatine: and ion the right
[12:21] Corona Anatine: is the sigil of the sun sqaure
[12:21] sofa cushion whispers: Hi Chraeloos Resident! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[12:22] Corona Anatine: qwhich is curious as if you imagine those lines superimposed on the dendera zodiac
[12:22] Corona Anatine: it joins four costellations
[12:22] Corona Anatine: The first beast was like a lion Leo [7pm ]
The second beast like a calf Taurus [3pm ]
The third beast had a face as a man Aquarius [1pm]
The fourth beast was like a flying eagle Cygnus?
[12:23] Corona Anatine: a diagonal cross on the dendera zodiaz joins those signs at right angles
[12:24] Gilles Kuhn: there is a constellation of the eagle why use cygnus well name can be variously interpreted
[12:24] Corona Anatine: and the zodaic makes revelations very clear [ ignoring any predictive meaning to them -we may or may not accept the idea - the people at the time these visions wwee written did
[12:25] Corona Anatine: becaause names and assignations vary
[12:25] Rhiannon of the Birds: So are you saying that the basis of Revelation was astrological?
[12:25] Corona Anatine: it is bird like in modern imagery
[12:25] Corona Anatine: but the imagery has deep folklore roots
[12:25] Corona Anatine: And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever.
[12:26] Corona Anatine: which may be a reference to the pole star as in ancient mythology the stars and planets were seen as sitting on thrones
[12:26] Corona Anatine: turning to Ezekeil
[12:27] Corona Anatine: Ezek
1:1-2: Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, 1:4: And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

So from the very start the text is referring to something seen in the heavens or sky as we now call it.
[12:27] Corona Anatine: there
[12:27] Corona Anatine: a whilrwind form out of the north as a fire unfolding itself
[12:28] Corona Anatine: This identification of the vision as an aurora has been made several times and quite plausible as this observation of the aurora borealis is not alone in being a very low latitude observation - there are records of aurora being seen at Rome and in 1859 the great Carrington Storm produced aurorae that were seen in the Bahamas. It is very difficult to "measure" solar activity per se.
This is probably the result of a very large Coronal Mass Ejection, - of the same size as the Carrington Storm precursor or maybe larger - the picture is slightly hazy because it will depend partly on where the Earth's magnetic pole was at that time. The Earth's aurorae tend to occur in a circle around the magnetic pole, which wanders about. If the pole was in the same meridian as Iraq it would take less energy to produce this size of expansion of the auroral oval than if it was elsewhere. All one can really say is that this was probably the sort of event that happens every hundred or few hundred years. Thus the other elements of
[12:28] Corona Anatine: Ezekeil saw an aurora which by the link with with the imagery of revelations was in the sky, this would either be the day or night sky

However the imagery strongly suggests the night sky and the imagery was referring to the constellations of or near the zodiac

As I will now show
[12:29] Corona Anatine: For a better understanding of the books of Revelations and Ezekiel the modern zodiac is of less value than one more contemporary to the civilisations around at the time the bible text was first written.
Hence the Dendera image
[12:30] Corona Anatine: [it is a piThe text states that the vision spoke to him

I am Alpha and Omega
Ignoring the xian association this can also be seen as a
the starting point of the zodiac which is also its end point
[12:30] Corona Anatine: however given the link between the sun and christ it may wel mena both
[12:30] Corona Anatine: an examination makes the zodiac or possibly even astrological conection with revelations very clear

What thou seest, write in a book. And I turned to see seven golden candlesticks.a
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, And he had in his right hand seven stars:

So the figure of a man has seven stars in its hand

This is probably the Pleiades near the figure of Orion
[12:31] Corona Anatine: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his face was as
the sun shineth in his strength
[12:31] Corona Anatine: this prob manes the words could be takne two ways
[12:32] Corona Anatine: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

I.E. this can be used for astrological prophesy

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks.
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.
The traditional planets known in ancient times
The rest of chapter one and all of chapters two and three are irelevant
[12:32] Corona Anatine: sorry to give so much christian text but that is the way of it
[12:32] Corona Anatine: Except for 2:28 ‘And I will give him the morning star’.
Which reinforces the impression that the source of the ‘visions’ were a veiwing of the night sky while in a trance state

The key is from chapter four onwards
Chp 4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven
The stars rose as a specific hour of the constellations
And immediately I was in the spirit
[12:33] Corona Anatine: John went into a [wormwood induced?] trance state

and, behold,a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
He perceived a constellation as a throne with a figure seated on it

Alternatively it is possibly a reference to the pole star

And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was
a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Under some atmospheric conditions the brighter stars will have a rainbow effect
[12:34] Corona Anatine: And round about the throne were four and twenty seats

The hours of the day
and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment.

Probably a reference to clouds in the sky

and they had on their heads crowns of gold

this may indicte it was evening near sunset when the ‘vision ‘ began the tops /heads of the clouds having refelcted sunlight

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices:
Auditory hallucination?
and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne.

A group of seven stars near the constellation, or possibly the seven planets of the ecliptic plane.
which are the seven Spirits of God.
[12:34] Gilles Kuhn: ahem that (star with rainbow effect) its impossible a star colour perceived colour however can vary due to athmospheric conditions
[12:34] Corona Anatine: the stars of course were regarded as deities by the ancient Egytpians
[12:35] Corona Anatine: [ or part of his trance / drug visions
[12:35] Corona Anatine: It is possible that nephilim [the fallen ones] is a reference to the stars which set, as opposed to the stars which never set – the circumpolar stars.
[12:35] Corona Anatine: but i dont aim to prusue that thread here
[12:36] Corona Anatine: The book Of Revelations. Chp 5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[12:36] Corona Anatine: The stars may be read as a book, if the secrets of astrology are known, the key to which is the seven planets] Also in an ancient context ‘book’ would have meant scroll, a closer metaphor to the stars passing overhead than the modern concept of ‘book’.
[12:36] Corona Anatine: And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. [only the select few with access to the hidden knowledge can read the stars as a book and predict astrologically]. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the
[12:36] Bryce Galbraith: How should the 'seven seals' be read?
[12:37] Rhiannon of the Birds: Gilles, that is what Corona meant; the way the stars are perceived is through an atmosphere
[12:37] Corona Anatine: i see it as a ref to astrological knowledge however my knowledge of astology is fairly m limited
[12:37] Corona Anatine: four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain.
[12:38] Corona Anatine: which I see as a ref to Aries as it fits the sequnce
[12:38] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, you make a good case, and astrology was widely read and understood by the scholars of the scriptures back then
[12:38] Corona Anatine: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. The stars shall rule the fate of men. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts
[12:39] Corona Anatine: i wil push relantless onwards to keep this in a good trime limit
[12:39] Rhiannon of the Birds: My only objection so far is for you to say it's a "wormwood induced hallucination." Even modern psychedelics, like peyote and Magic Mushrooms, are said to have veridical content. Let's not beg questions
[12:39] Gilles Kuhn: ahem the lamb is the figure of the sacrificial lamb i e the christ which btw in heraldic are the christ shield (the lamb wearing a standart with a crosss)
[12:39] Corona Anatine: and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.
The multitude of stars?
[12:40] Corona Anatine: And every creature which is in heaven, [the constellations of the zodiac, which in hebrew are called ‘nazaroth’. Canst thou bind the sweet [astrological] influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Canst thou bring forth Nazaroth in his season? Job 23

Jesus of the zodiac Historically the town of Nazareth did not exist until the third centrury CE, there being no such town in Galilee during Djoshua ben Djusefs life.
So therefore it is impossible for him to have been born in or have come from a town of that name. However in hebrew the word nazoroth or nazereth refers to the zodiac. The implications of this for a religion which purports to condemn astrology and fortune telling are left to xians to ponder.
However the prohibition on astrology comes from the beginning chapters of the bible, by Ezekiels time the israelites had been influenced by the Chaldeans for many decades, and by the time of John further influenced by the Romans.
[12:40] Gilles Kuhn: now aries is just up Orion the hunter so indeed there is symbolism as the bull being sacrificed
[12:40] Corona Anatine: there ar emany links between christ and solar mytholgy so another link would not surprise me
[12:41] Corona Anatine: Because the visions in the book are based upon the steller constellations, what the prophet states he heard can be ignored as voices in his head. The visions are also but being based upon something which exists in the shared physical universe, the basis for the seen aspects of the vision can be usefully ascertained.
[12:41] Corona Anatine: And I saw when the Lamb [aries] opened one of the seals. In traditional western astrology each sign is ruled by one and only one of the seven visible planets.
[12:42] Corona Anatine: exceuse if i dont change aries
[12:42] Bryce Galbraith: ah, okay...
[12:42] Gilles Kuhn: and sorry aries is not the bull my mistake
[12:42] Corona Anatine: These are perhaps the seven seals mentioned by revelations.
[12:42] Corona Anatine: And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.Sagittarius
[12:42] Corona Anatine: In the Egyptian zodiac Sagittarius wears a crown
[12:43] Corona Anatine: And there went out another horse that was red, [unclear which constellation this is,] and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth,
[The stars have power over men], and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
[12:43] Corona Anatine: And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. [Libra]. On the basis that the white horse of rev 6:02 is Sagittarius, and the black horse of 6:05 is Libra, then the red horse would be a constellation between them.One possible is Perseus, as it has a sword, is associated with death, and the main star Algol is red.
[12:43] Corona Anatine: However it does not lie between Sagittarius and Libra, although such may not have been important in the original ‘vision’ of course.
Algol [hebrew Rosh ha Satan, 'Satan's Head] 'is supposedly the most unfortunate and dangerous star in the sky, and reputed to cause violence and unnatural death. And I looked, and behold a pale horse:and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. [Astrological power of the stars over the lives of men].
This constellation is also unclear, but might be scorpio, which by ancient tradition rules the cycle of life, death and birth, and many of the associated myths reflect this.
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. [Hard to read this, possibly some atmospheric effect, or perhap
[12:44] Corona Anatine: ok while you read that i wil edit the images
[12:45] Corona Anatine: The book Of Revelations.Chp 7 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, [a star or constellation rose in the east as the earth turned] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. This appears to be equating the stars in the sky with the count of the tribal numbers. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, [The uncountable stars.]
[12:45] Gilles Kuhn: for notice algol mean in arabic the eyes of the devil and its a variable star its magnitude vary but regularily due to an orbiting companion but that reason was unknow to the ancient
[12:46] Corona Anatine: I wil move pass chapter 8 - it may be a ref to a comet - however the exact detail are unclear and it shortend the presentation a little
[12:46] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, no man could number? Carl Sagan came close. "billions and billions." lol
[12:46] Bryce Galbraith: :)
[12:46] Corona Anatine: The book Of Revelations.Chp 9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth.
[Another reference to the stars setting as the earth rotated] And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Possibly one of the bright stars in scorpio, possibly the planet venus. Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates, the river is possibly a reference to the milky way, and the four angels would thus be the constellations Auriga , Perseus, Cygnus and Aquila.
The determination of which constellations are referred to in chapters 8 and 9 is problematic.
[12:47] Corona Anatine: And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, [the stars set as the earth rotated] clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, [tentatively identifiable as Orion].
[12:47] Gilles Kuhn: (sorry phone)
[12:47] Corona Anatine: sporry to be so fast in the turn over of chat
[12:48] Rhiannon of the Birds: Just give us a minute to catch our breath and it will beok, Corona
[12:48] Corona Anatine: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman [virgo] clothed with the sun, [near to the ecliptic] and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: [coma berenices or possibly Corona Bor] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: [The constellation Hydra] and the dragon [hydra] stood before [rose in the sky prior to] the woman [virgo] which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [Gemini?] fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. [the constellations set in the west below the horizon].
And the great dragon was cast out, that old s
[12:48] Corona Anatine: this paragraph i think is shown in the iamage on the right
[12:48] Rhiannon of the BirdsRhiannon of the Birds thinks she's clothed with the sun right now
[12:48] Corona Anatine: the figure battles the seperent
[12:48] Corona Anatine: serpent
[12:49] Corona Anatine: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. [the zodiac]
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, [possibly a reference to bootes and corvus.] and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. The constellation Hydra- the flood from its mouth being the
Milky Way, which is nearby in the sky.
[12:49] Corona Anatine: The book Of Revelations.Chp 13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, [another constellation rises in the east – following on from hydra so tentatively identified as centaurus] having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast [centaurus] which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. [So adjacent to Hydra]
[12:50] Corona Anatine: the next peice is possibly a ref to astrological influences on humans so i will pass over to the next peice
[12:50] Corona Anatine: Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. [A reference to numerological astrology]
The sum of the first 36 numbers is 666, this is 6 by 6 which is the square of the sun
[12:51] Corona Anatine: and i found this online earleier today=
[12:51] Rhiannon of the Birds: And when assigned numbers, as they did to letters, spells out NERO.
[12:51] Corona Anatine: The earliest Christians were converted pagans. One of the arguments the early Church used to convert pagans to Christianity was that Jesus Christ had more solar attributes than any other god. His face was even reputed to shine like the sun (Matt 17:2). Examining the metaphorical logic of equating Jesus with Helios the Sun, one has to ask ... is there any kind of logical reason or secret knowledge that the early Gnostic Christians were aware of to make these kind of comparisons? Is there some kind of a link between the raised Jesus (8880) and the Magic Square of the Sun whose number is 666?
[12:52] Corona Anatine: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, [another constellation rises in the east] and with him an hundred forty and four thousand [stars]. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, And there followed another angel, and the third angel followed them. [A sequence of three constellations] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. The sickle reference may mean this is the plough constellation.
However it could easily be another.
As the chapter count advances it becomes increasingly difficult to determine which constellation is referred to in the text.
[12:52] Rhiannon of the Birds: The Zoroastrian notion of the equality of Good and Eveil come to mind, and the three wise men were probably Zoroastrians.
[12:52] Corona Anatine: This may be because the author is referring to lesser constellations, or it might be due to the text being derived from a different nights observation
[12:52] Corona Anatine: And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, [the constellation (the plough) sets below the horizon] and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [perhaps the name of a constellation]. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, [another constellation rises in the east] he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, [another constellation rises in the east].
[12:53] Corona Anatine: And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. [another constellation rises in the east, perhaps the pleiades?]
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, [something atmospheric? perhaps an aurora? By this time theconstellations are no longer so clear, and sufficient time had probabby passed that this sea of glass might be a reference to the first pre dawn light]
[12:53] Corona Anatine: After chapter 15 the text becomes difficult to equate with the constellations
[12:53] Corona Anatine: However that the underlying theme is still based upon the night sky, is shown by several verses.
[12:54] Corona Anatine: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: [the stars rise and set?]
[12:54] Corona Anatine: And there are seven kings: [ the seven planets] five are fallen, [set] and one is, [the morning star, venus] and the other is not yet come; [the sun] and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. [An eighth object in the sky?
[12:55] Corona Anatine: 20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. The old serpent might be the constellation hydra or is possibly a reference to the milky way, which is equated with a serpent in many myths of the region. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
This is probaby a reference to the night starting to end, the stars receeding as the dawn light came on. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon th
[12:55] Corona Anatine: The book Of Revelations.Chp 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And he that sat upon the throne said, behold, I make all things new
[12:55] Corona Anatine: This is tentatively identified as the first light of dawn described with a lot of mythological/esoteric symbolism.
[12:55] Corona Anatine: The book Of Revelations.Chp 22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
This is tentatively identified as the sun rising at dawn described with a lot of mythological symbolism. And there shall be no night there. [At dawn QED]
[12:56] Corona Anatine: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. So Jesus is the morning star which is Lucifer, also known as Satan. So according to the bible Jesus is Satan [sic]
[12:56] Corona Anatine: ?
[12:56] Bryce Galbraith: interesting....
[12:56] Rhiannon of the Birds: Corona, well, the connection between 666 and the divine number--again Zoroastrianism
[12:56] Bryce Galbraith: I'm afraid I need to head out, but thanks for the presentation! You've clearly done your research here and made a compelling case overall I think. :)
[12:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: TC, Bryce
[12:57] Split Tip Jar: Thank you Bryce Galbraith for your very generous donation.
[12:57] Corona Anatine: so in conclusion the visions cna be shown to havea natural expalnation which make sboth clear
[12:57] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Bryce
[12:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Yes, it's a great case, Corona. Better than Edgar Cayce's interpretation by far
[12:57] Corona Anatine: thank you al for listening
[12:57] Rhiannon of the Birds: Well, but the visions could be sublated--from the natural to the spiritual; doesn't deny their validity in the slightest
[12:57] Chraeloos: Thank you Corona, that was great.
[12:58] Chraeloos: If you are interested in keeping up to date feel free to check out our blog: http://www.epithetandsynonym.info/
Our website is also a great way to stay up to date: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/
Event Calendar: http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/apps/calendar/
Thanks for coming!
[12:58] Corona Anatine: it is a complex subject and i have prob only touched the surfcae of the exoteric meanings
[12:58] Chraeloos: People have spent their entire lives studying the link, I'm sure
[12:59] Corona Anatine: lol im sure they have
[12:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: And you're unduoubtedly right that theere is an astrological substratum here. and you touch upon the numerological one.
[12:59] Corona Anatine: but i feel i can at least explain the source of the visions
[12:59] Corona Anatine: the pattern is there
[12:59] Rhiannon of the Birds: And Cayce could still be right that it was an esoteric shorthand for Chinese medicine
[12:59] Chraeloos: You make a very convincing argument
[12:59] Corona Anatine: what they saw in the sky
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: And the Leyhe argument that it only makes sense as future history is still not precluded
[13:00] Corona Anatine: what they saw as the meaning behind the visions is probably much harder to reach
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: Corona, yes. That's where everyone from Cacyce to Leyhe can be right.
[13:00] Rhiannon of the Birds: But you show the foundation.
[13:00] Corona Anatine: as christainity then is totally alein to the modern version
[13:01] Corona Anatine: but the fact that both ezekeil and John describe the sem things points to it being somethign that is visible to us
[13:02] Corona Anatine: which we can determine
[13:02] Chraeloos: assuming the sky looks the same now
[13:02] Corona Anatine: oh for the period covered it would
[13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: Oh, i got to run. Just remembered, there is an event I'm co hosting starting now.
[13:03] Corona Anatine: john is early first millenium CE
[13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: oops.
[13:03] Corona Anatine: ezekeil 500 bce
[13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: SDolphin's talk on Chinese nutrition
[13:03] Corona Anatine: oh that seasy
[13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: Thanks Corona!
[13:03] Corona Anatine: if it moves they eat it
[13:03] Chraeloos: Thanks for coming Rhia
[13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: Bye, Karl, Chrae,Gilles,
[13:03] Rhiannon of the Birds: oh, my pleasure
[13:04] *SandBrocade II Ottoman Blk Pld whispers: Hi Corona Anatine! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[13:04] sofa cushion whispers: Hi Karlingo Lorefield! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.
[13:04] Karlingo Lorefield: Corona, as always that was esquisite
[13:04] Corona Anatine: ty
[13:05] Chraeloos: Yes very well done Corona, thanks again
[13:05] Corona Anatine: it is a complex subject to unravel
[13:05] Chraeloos: No kidding
[13:05] Corona Anatine: cos there are so many side links to other topics
[13:05] Corona Anatine: and the jesus/ solor god cross shading
[13:06] Corona Anatine: but i feel sure im on the right track -cos the more i find the stronger the connectionms seem to be
[13:06] Corona Anatine: usually a sign of being on the right road
[13:07] Karlingo Lorefield: thats a good point
[13:07] Corona Anatine: is like at uni when the study starts to come togehter
[13:07] Karlingo Lorefield: Knowing where the road forks is where the focus should be, right?
[13:08] Corona Anatine: yeh to an extent
[13:08] Corona Anatine: a lot of side forks are dead ends tho
[13:08] Karlingo Lorefield: myxtc, you ok on the floor there?
[13:08] Chraeloos: I think she's afk
[13:08] Gilles Kuhn: but indeed astrological symbolism was a very used hermeneutic in antiquity and directed at cultivated classes whioch ezxplain why john which in his gospel was theological in the extreme used it to communicate christian doctrine in his revelation
[13:08] Chraeloos: said she just wanted the chat log to read later
[13:08] Corona Anatine: and in some ways its the reverse the roads joins rather than parts
[13:09] Corona Anatine: it also perhasp throws light on crowleys claim to be 666
[13:09] Corona Anatine: he would have known the link between christ and 666
[13:09] Corona Anatine: and may well have bene claiming kinship
[13:10] Corona Anatine: and the name great beast
[13:10] Corona Anatine: that would fit with the beasts being stars and constellations
[13:10] Corona Anatine: the greast beast being the sun as opposed o teh lesser beast s or planets
[13:11] Corona Anatine: but that is moving away from scientific conections into occult territory
[13:12] Karlingo Lorefield: I can see that I shall get confused rather quickly.
[13:12] Chraeloos: lol
[13:12] Chraeloos: I like this idea a lot, hadn't considered it before
[13:12] Corona Anatine: oh it best to avoid that topic as this is not a wiccan moot whre they like such things
[13:12] Chraeloos: true
[13:13] Corona Anatine: but in occult lore everything can be connected with everything else
[13:13] Corona Anatine: lime a sorrt of all embracing conspiracy theory
[13:13] Karlingo Lorefield: is the etymology of occult edicts clear historically?
[13:13] Corona Anatine: threads can be traced
[13:14] Corona Anatine: but they can get very convulated
[13:14] Karlingo Lorefield: I can imagine that non conformity plays a strong thread through the timeline
[13:15] Corona Anatine: an dthe subject matter - myth changes a sthe obsvere does
[13:15] Corona Anatine: which is why i mainly stuck with the underlying nature the visions seem to be based upon
[13:16] Corona Anatine: avoiding the magico-religious meanings
[13:16] Corona Anatine: which are like a tesseract
[13:16] Gilles Kuhn: (and sorry my phone impeached me to comment after the formal part
[13:16] Gilles Kuhn: )
[13:17] Corona Anatine: no worries your comments are alwasy good
[13:17] Chraeloos: No problem Gilles
[13:19] Gilles Kuhn: and corona the four symbolic figure for the evangelist are the eagle for john the angel for matthew the lion for marc and the bull for st luke

Upcoming Lectures

2012-01-04T15:06:00.000-08:00

We have two lectures coming up next week.

Sunday at 12pmSLT/PST Corona Anatine will be presenting a lecture on astronomy and it's connection to the link between two books of the bible and bablyonian astrology.

Monday at 12pmSLT/PST Theodore Theseus will be presenting a lecture on psychology and relationship. Find more of his opinions here: http://www.ted.com/profiles/242907

Both will be held in the E&S Online Cafe: http://goo.gl/psv10

We look forward to seeing you there! Message Chraeloos in-world for more information.

Tuesday Dec 27 Reading and Philosophy

2011-12-27T12:24:00.000-08:00

The event today attracted nine people, four of which shared their own writing (not including myself). I read "Flowers of Love" by Oscar Wilde. Other people shared their own poems, but I read three poems written by the guests.

The discussion topic was skepticism and stoicism. Intro notes below. Everyone stayed for the discussion, which lasted about an hour. I unfortunately got pulled away near the end for RL stuff, but kept my eye on it. Thanks to everyone who was included. Once again if you want a copy of the transcript feel free to ask as I do have it.

Skepticism

a. The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
b. The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general.
c. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty. -Free Dictionary

"The Western tradition of systematic skepticism goes back at least as far as Pyrrho of Elis. He was troubled by the disputes that could be found within all philosophical schools of his day. According to a later account of his life, he became overwhelmed by his inability to determine rationally which school was correct. Upon admitting this to himself, he finally achieved the inner peace that he had been seeking. ...The goal of this critique, which Pyrrho's followers realized would ultimately subvert even their own method, was to cultivate a distrust of all grand talk. They expected philosophy to collapse into itself. How far in this direction the Pyrrhonean commitment extended is a matter of debate. The Pyrrhonists confessed a belief in appearances, e.g. in hot and cold, grief and joy. It is impossible to deny, they admitted, that one seems to be in pain or seems to touch a piece of wood. Their world, thus, was completely phenomenological. An accomplished Pyrrhonist could, ideally, live as well as a dogmatist but with the added benefit of not worrying about truth and falsity, right and wrong, God's will, and so forth.

Subjectively, both the powers of the senses and of reasoning may vary across persons. And since knowledge is a product of one and/or the other, and since neither are reliable, knowledge would seem to be in trouble. For instance, a color-blind person sees the world quite differently from everyone else. Moreover, we cannot even give preference on the basis of the power of reason, i.e., by treating the rational animal as a carrier of greater knowledge than the irrational animal. For the irrational animal is still adept at navigating their environment, which presupposes the ability to know about some aspects of the environment.

Secondly, the personality of the individual might also have an impact on what they observe, since (it is argued) preferences are based on sense-impressions, differences in preferences can be attributed to differences in the way that people are affected by the object. (Empiricus:56)

Third, the perceptions of each individual sense seemingly have nothing in common with the other senses: i.e., the color "red" has little to do with the feeling of touching a red object. This is manifest when our senses "disagree" with each other: for example, a mirage presents certain visible features, but is not responsive to any other kind of sense. In that case, our other senses defeat the impressions of sight. But we may also be lacking enough powers of sense to understand the world in its entirety: if we had an extra sense, then we might know of things in a way that the present five senses are unable to advise us of. Given that our senses can be shown to be unreliable by appealing to other senses, and so our senses may be incomplete (relative to some more perfect sense that we lack), then it follows that all of our senses may be unreliable. (Empiricus:58)

Fourth, our circumstances when we do any perceiving may be either natural or unnatural, i.e., we may be either in a state of wakefulness or that of sleep. But it is entirely possible that things in the world really are exactly as they appear to be to those in unnatural states (i.e., if everything were an elaborate dream). (Empiricus:59)

Along the same lines, the skeptic may insist that all things are relative, by arguing that:

1. Absolute appearances either differ from relative appearances, or they do not.
2. If absolutes do not differ from relatives, then they are themselves relative.
3. But if absolutes do differ from relatives, then they are relative, because all things that differ must differ from something; and to "differ" from something is to be relative to something. (Empiricus:67)"
-Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism

"Buddhist Skepticism

Buddhist skepticism (Zen Buddhism) is not concerned with whether a thing exists or not. Buddha is said to have touched the earth at the time of his enlightenment so that it could witness his enlightenment. In this way, Buddhism does not claim that knowledge is unattainable.Buddhism places less emphasis on truth and knowledge than western philosophical skepticism. Instead, it emphasizes the goal of Bodhi, which, although often translated as enlightenment, does not imply truth or knowledge. At least in its manifestation of Nagarjuna's texts that form the core of Madhyamaka, the anti-essentialist aspect of Buddhism makes it an anti-philosophy. From that stance, truth exists solely within the contexts that assert them.

Hindu Skepticism

One of the main schools of Hindu skepticism is the Cārvāka school, also known as Lokāyata. The school is named after Cārvāka, author of the Bārhaspatya-sūtras and was founded in approximately 500 BC. Cārvāka is classified as a "heterodox" (nāstika) system, characterized as a materialistic and atheistic school of thought." -Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism

Other eastern religions and philosophies practiced skepticism, including: Jainism, Confucianism, Daoism, Islamic Theology, etc.

David Johnson argues that "Academic skepticism cannot satnd alone, that it necessarily requires the terms, concepts and assumptions of Stoicism as an antecedent condition."-What Does Acadmic Skepticism Presuppose?

Stoic: A member of an originally Greek school of philosophy, founded by Zeno about 308 b.c., believing that God determined everything for the best and that virtue is sufficient for happiness.

Its later Roman form advocated the calm acceptance of all occurrences as the unavoidable result of divine will or of the natural order. -Free Dictionary

What do you think of skepticism? Is it a valid philosophy? Does skepticism presuppose stoicism?

I open the floor.

Dec 20 Reading and Philosophy

2011-12-23T17:19:00.000-08:00

I apologize for the late notice on this update, it's been a busy week - for everyone I'm sure!

The topic we had this week was "purpose". We explored some poems and short prose, namely "Seeking for Happiness" by Ella Wheeler Wilcox, an excerpt from "Everest Aspiration Part 3" by Sri Chinmoy, a quote from Marcus Aurelius, a quote from Macbeth, and a poem called "Life" by Charlotte Bronte. A copy of the intro notes are below. We started late, as most people showed up closer to ten thirty, but we continued for an hour and a half. We had about ten people throughout the whole event. Some had to leave early.

Intro Notes:

Topic: Purpose

pur·pose[pur-puhs] noun, verb, -posed, -pos·ing.

noun

1. the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.

2. an intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.

3. determination; resoluteness.

4. the subject in hand; the point at issue.

5. practical result, effect, or advantage: to act to good purpose.

Philosophy itself is an attempt to understand the meaning of life, which is in a sense an exploration of life's purpose or significance. In order for something to have a purpose we must believe in that purpose and be able to prove its validity. Socrates would say that for something to have a purpose it must be explainable as to what it is doing and why that's best.

Fyodor Dostoyevsky, in his novel, "Notes from Underground", explains war as a "people's rebellion against the assumption that everything needs to happen for a purpose, because humans do things without purpose, and this is what determines human history".

Wikipedia, http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_from_Underground

Whole text can be found here: http/goo.gl/pNy2o

"After Aristotle "final cause" has meant that for the sake of which phenomena transpire and "efficient cause" is the immediate means or mechanism necessary for actualizing phenomena or for bringing them into existence. Most modern scientists believe that efficient causes are measurable, knowable, and often controllable, and that many phenomena are predictable if not controllable, through a knowledge of their efficient causes. Under the influence of experimental science the belief that final causes are useful for a scientific understanding of phenomena has almost completely disappeared. Rather there is an almost universal tendency to define "scientific understanding" in terms of a knowledge of the basis for predicting and controlling phenomena, and scientists are increasingly more inclined to believe that controlling phenomena consists in the manipulation of immediately present physical objects (which are the efficient causes).

From the scientific standpoint, then, the crucial question concerning vitalism (spiritualism, etc.) and mechanism (physicalism) is this: Does the belief in, or even a knowledge of, the existence of a vital principle (élan vital, entelecy, life force, etc.) have any scientific value? That is, can such a principle be of help in understanding phenomena scientifically, remembering that "scientific understanding" means to most scientists the ability to predict and control?

Sinnott believes his philosophy of purpose will be of great help in a scientific understanding. He does not intend to proclaim supernaturalism, and he believes there is nothing whatever unscientific, supernatural, or unintelligible about purpose and final causes."

Sinnott's Philosophy of Purpose, David L. Miller

The Review of Metaphysics, Vol. 11, No. 4 (Jun., 195, pp. 637-647

http/www.jstor.org/stable/20123671

"Active behaviour may be subdivided into two classes: purposeless (or random) and purposeful. The term purposeful is meant to denote that the act or behaviour may be interpreted as directed to the attainment of a goal–i.e., to a final condition in which the behaving object reaches a definite correlation in time or in space with respect to another object or event. Purposeless behaviour than is that which is not interpreted as directed to a goal.

The vagueness of words "may be interpreted" as used above might be considered so great that the distinction would be useless. Yet the recognition that behaviour may sometimes be purposeful is unavoidable and useful, as follows. –The basis of the concept of purposes the awareness of voluntary activity. Now, the purpose of voluntary acts is not a matter of arbitrary interpretation but a physiological fact. When we perform a voluntary action what we select voluntarily is a specific purpose, not a specific movement. Thus, if we decide to take a glass containing water and carry it to our mouth we do not command certain muscles to contract to a certain degree and in a certain sequence; we merely trip the purpose and the reaction follows automatically. Indeed, experimental physiology has so far been largely incapable of explaining the mechanism of voluntary activity. We submit that this failure is due to the fact that when an experimenter stimulates the motor regions of the cerebral cortex he does not duplicate a voluntary reaction; he trips efferent, output pathways, but does not trip a purpose, as is done voluntarily."

Behaviour, Purpose and Teleology

Arturo Rosenblueth, Norbert Wiener and Julian Bigelow

Philosophy of Science, Vol. 10, No. 1 (Jan., 1943), pp. 18-24

URL: http/www.jstor.org/stable/184878

When it comes to writing fiction we find that it is necessary to have a purpose to the story.

"What are you trying to accomplish with your story? What is its moral or theme? Is it to demonstrate the worth of a particular brand of morality, to point the way toward the future, to deplore a certain ideology or form of social organization? The story is a lie, but the lie must accomplish something besides simply being believed. It must excite, teach, enlighten, stir to action, soothe, uplift, depress, sadden, bring happiness--something. Otherwise, there is no point in telling it. And what that purpose is may or may not be your choice. In making up a story, the tale's purpose is not necessarily the starting point. You may not even know the purpose until after you have finished inventing the tale. But there must be a purpose. Without a purpose--or without a purpose of significance--the story becomes trivial."

Barry B. Longyear, Science Fiction Writer's Workshop--I: An Introduction to Fiction Mechanics (Philadelphia: Owlswick Press, 1980), 11. ISBN: 913896-18-7.

As we can see here, in all aspects of our lives we strive for purpose. Whether it's science, literature, or just the reason for living. But people didn't always need purpose. For primitive people they hunted because they needed food to survive. We can't know for sure if they understood the "why's" of the world or not, but we do know that they didn't do actions for any purpose other than survival. So, is that what it all comes down to - survival?

Questions we must ask:

-Is 'purpose' deemed by an individual or by society?

-Is purpose always justified?

-In order for something to be justified does it need a purpose?

-Can a purpose change?

-Is purpose existant in order for us to survive?

-Is saying that everything, including life, has a purpose the same as saying fate exists, or that everything is planned?

New Lecture: Self & Other, An Exploration of Relationship

2011-12-21T11:08:00.000-08:00

Jan. 9, 2012 Noon SLT/PST - Theodore Theseus will present a lecture regarding the psychology and science behind relationships. More information coming soon.

Location: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Timba%20West/215/36/26

Lectures! Teams! Updates!

2011-12-18T15:30:00.000-08:00

We were very happy to have Corona Anatine give a lecture on ancient archaeology and conservation today. It was the first of many lectures to come. Starting in the new year she will give lectures at E&S on a regular basis, the first of the series starting on Jan 8th at noon SLT (topic TBA).

We had nearly twenty people show up at our SL cafe for Corona's lecture. There was great involvement and everyone stayed for the discussion afterwards. It was intriguing and we all learned a lot - at least I know I did. The questions people asked were deep and intuitive. We really appreciate all the involvement. If anyone is interested in obtaining a copy of the discussion log feel free to consult Chraeloos in world or email 'laurajones@epithetandsynonym.biz'. (Note, What I send you will be locked, therefore you won't be able to copy it)

On a side note, we are still looking to hire another lecturer for a regular series starting in the new year. If you are interested please email 'laurajones@epithetandsynonym.biz' with any comments or questions.

Starting in the new year as well, we are hoping to get a group of about five or so people to join a Literary Review Team. This team would read and review a volunteered piece of unpublished writing (non-fiction, likely), that would then be edited and published by Epithet and Synonym. If you are interested in joining the team or volunteering your work please do so by contacting either 'admin@epithetandsynonym.biz' or 'laurajones@epithetandsynonym.biz', or Karlingo Lorefield or Chraeloos (on SL).

Keep up to date on events through our calendar, Facebook page, twitter, or on this blog.

Reading and Discussion on Dec. 13th

2011-12-13T12:51:00.000-08:00

Today was the first event I ever ran on SL, and in E&S. I was expecting to barely fill up an hour, but the discussion and reading continued for two and a half hours. We started out with the intro notes I created (which you can find at the bottom of this post), and continued from those. I chose poems and stories that related to reality and perception. One other person read some of his own work aloud, while two other people sent me notecards to read their work from. We managed to fill the first forty-five minutes with reading, finishing with a selection from Philip K. Dick's, "How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" (1978). From there we started a discussion that started out with reality, falling into time, to consciousness, to religion and probably crossed some lines in there. Not everyone was able to stay for the discussion, but the majority did. Overall, I'd say it was a fantastic turnout.

We started with what looked like there would only be three of us, but soon after a bunch more people came. We had a total of eight people come and go from the discussion (as time permitted). The majority of them joined the E&S group so we hope to be seeing them again.

We will have a discussion next week at the same time (10am SLT). Despite the holidays, I will also hold a discussion on the 27th of December, but will only be able to type, not speak.

The next event is on friday, come join us for a movie night at 2:30pm SLT. We are planning some other events as well, so stay tuned! You can check with us online, by email, or through the site calendar to stay up to date.

Thanks to everyone who came today, it was fantastic. I've saved a copy of the transcript so if anyone who has taken part would like a copy let me know. I've cleaned it up a bit but didn't change any of the comments or spelling or anything.

The following is a copy of the introduction notes I started with. If you have any suggestions for topics or anything else feel free to comment or email me @ laurajones@epithetandsynonym.biz.

"my mind is
a big hunk of irrevocable nothing which touch and
taste and smell and hearing and sight keep hitting and
chipping with sharp fatal tools
in an agony of sensual chisels i perform squirms of
chrome and execute strides of cobalt
nevertheless i
feel that i cleverly am being altered that i slightly am
becoming something a little different, in fact
myself
Hereupon helpless i utter lilac shrieks and scarlet
bellowings."
EE Cummings, Portraits VII

Many philosophers are also great writers; Plato, Nietzsche, Hume, Descartes, etc. They have made great leaps in the way we think and act. They continue to make a difference to students and enquiring minds around the globe. Their writing, and therefore their ideas, will be around always, influencing the way people see and experience the world. But philosophers as individuals don't exist today like they did in the past. There is little profit of being a philosopher as a career. Most people that ponder the meaning of life go into science, not philosophy. We think we understand the basics of reality, so as a society we do not explore it like we used to. But people will always wonder why we exist, and why we suffer, and what makes us who we are. There will always be people that expore these questions and others like them. It's just a matter of form.

"All intelligent thoughts have already been thought; what is necessary is only to try to think them again."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

All writer's are philosophers. That's one of the great parts about being a writer - we get to express ourselves in such a way that the perspectives we have upon the world are preserved as long as the work itself is preserved. This is a human want, to be immortalized, to be known. We write things down because we truly believe them. We write things down because they are important to us and we want to save them. Fiction itself is a philosophy, each author's individual reality, their world-view, or a world-view they wish to explore, personified in a little bound book. Each of us in this room has likely written something at some point in our lives that was not mandatory of us. If it was online it will be stored somewhere, somehow, until the microchip it is stored in is destroyed and the data is irretrievable. If it's printed it will likely exist in multiple copies until they are all burned or destroyed, until every last shred of it is gone. Writers are immortal. Writer's are the philosophers of our time. We, you and you, and you, are the philosophers of our time.

"All this worldly wisdom was once the unamiable heresy of some wise man."
Henry David Thoreau

We have gathered in this place today to share those pieces of ourselves and of our world-view with each other, in order to immortalize ourselves and our belief's.

On that note, who would like to share first?

Comedians on the Edge

2011-10-23T03:13:00.001-07:00

I saw a debate today, they spoke about Comedians "going too far" with their jokes. The debate centrered around disabled people, their complaints in response to jokes, what the limits of jokes should be, or indeed should they mention disability at all.

The people discussing this seemed to wholly miss the point. It is as though expression has been narrowed down to a simple "black or white" template, I do not think that there is a right or wrong here.

The problem is nothing to do with whether or not its "ok" to joke about disabled people, I believe the intelligence of the actual comedian is where the issue lies. As a society we have certain natural restrictions placed on us by situation, and a degree of jovial obstinacy goes a long way towards releiving us from these restraints, its often fun to create a wry smile through a joke, albeit in a friendly way, even if it is about disability. But this has to be done intelligently. A joke about a disabled person in a certain situation which everybody knows wouldnt happen in real life is still above the line, I remember joking to my grandfather that he "will be bought a pint if he beats me to the end of the road in a race", he enjoyed these jokes, it was acceptable. But calling somebody a "mong" or so is not acceptable, it has no basis, no relation to anything.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please leave your own comments above, (beside the title). They are welcome.

For Japanese learners : Part 1

2011-09-27T13:14:00.000-07:00

ok, so you are a learner of the ancient language of Japan, but find yourself stood on more grammar snippets, text books , kanji and idioms than you can fathom!

In this edition we talk about learning "Hiragana", one of the starting blocks for all Japanesists. Oh look a new word! Yes I just made that up, but anyway....here goes.

How many characters are there in the hiragana syllabary you say!!?!? Yes, quite a few I hasten to add. I will tell you which ones to learn first, and then explain why, see the list below :

DE, WA, SHI, TA, O, RI, A, MA, SU, N, SE, NI, KA, and GA.

Start with the particles, (those bits that make up the structure, letting the listener or reader know what is going on in a sentence), and then the tenses of both the "Desu form" and the "Masu form" of verbs. You will now notice these hiragana appearing everywhere, this, I think a far better way of learning than trying to remember complete words, which you probably will not use for a long time......

If this subject interests you, why not become a follower and check back for upcoming editions in the near future ?

and the winner is....Ambrea Rosalin!

2011-09-27T12:58:00.000-07:00

The above named lady has just won the E&S writing competition, is slightly richer and is grinning no doubt for a few days to come yet as her writing carrer tots up another notch...

You know how every so often a story, tale, exposure to somebodys immense talent comes up and shakes you? Well, this week insofar has been it. Do you want to know what I am talking about ? Her story is over on the company website page, in the library.

Ambrea Rosalin, who has just won the E&S writing competition now has even more fans. I want to see what else this writer can do, so Ambrea, if youre reading this, please write more!

How about taking part too? Your story might make the E&S headlines

Writing Competition Ends....phew! What talent.

2011-09-26T05:06:00.000-07:00

The current writing competition finished on the 26th of September 2011. Members and non members alike are now welcome to start writing for the next one, which finishes on December 21st 2011.

The enthusiasm of all you people is really amazing, it is actually a pleasure to log on and see what people have written, the range of stories is really quite brilliant. However, I need more people to take part, it is so easy to do so, just access the company website (see link at top right of this page), join (takes like a single minute), then either email your story or upload it yourself to the library. Hey, everything you upload doesnt have to be for the competition.

Finally, the lucky winner shall be announced tomorrow, 27th of September, and they will be slightly richer afterwards too! Watch out for it!

Poetry on the fly

2011-09-25T18:17:00.000-07:00

There is always a surreal recollective, sort of dream-like state when poetry is written. It is mildly schizophrenic, the shapes and colours presented before a poet surely must be the framework for any such pondering.

I certainly have journeyed through some very odd and rare landscapes on my literary travels, as the words jostle for position, I wonder albeit sub consciously if what i am penning is likely to make sense to any other individual than myself, if it were not for the intoxication of such motivational dalliance.

But what remains is often a structure, surreal and chronologically placed selection of paragraphed prose, in all its ephemeral glory. Poetry, is after all wholly personal, often heartfelt and hopefully rendered in the minds and hearts of those who read it, relate to it and reflect on it soon afterwards.

That, surely is the objective, even if not apparent to our conscious at the time.

Is "Text Speak" dissolving the way we communicate?

2011-07-08T15:29:00.000-07:00

A lot of people nowadays communicate very different to how we did 100 or even 15 years ago. With shortened sentences, substituted words and so on. How much of what a person wants to say is actually contained in the sentence typed or texted ? Technology surely must have a part to play. An ironic viewpoint comes into play though, technology that is intended to make our lives easier, for what purpose? So that we can have more free time to relax, surely.

The shorter a sentences is, the less it can perhaps carry emotional content, imigery. This is something to ponder about, maybe It is why we are so busy. We spend a lot of time re-iterating to each other.

Certainly something to think about.

Online Pyjama Party at 1408!!

2011-06-04T08:43:00.000-07:00

Last night in "Second Life" saw a bunch of literary and arty Enthusiasts turn up for a virtual Pyjama Party and movie. The theme this week was "Horror".

What a great start to the weekend.....So, there we were, all snuggled up around the fireplace in our pyjamas with our teddy bears (Or Rabbits in some cases ^^) watching the oddest horror movie indeed, entitled "1408". A writer goes on an expedition to see if he can finally be given the opportunity to "believe in Ghosts", he books into a forbidden hotel room, and then finds himself being sadistically haunted by the devil ! Stephen King really is a surreal writer. The book needs to be read....before or after the film? Comments please.

Writing Competition

2011-04-25T16:06:00.000-07:00

Over at the company members area, a writing competition is taking place. The prize is £20, about £50 dollars for the winner !

Click the link below to jump on over....

http://www.epithetandsynonym.biz/membersarea.htm

Third Birthday

2011-04-08T13:53:00.000-07:00

E&S is three years old this week. It sure has been an interesting journey so far. When I started out on this project I had no idea how much it would shape, and what direction it would go in.

I have sat wondering so many times about giving up, and nearly did on a few occasions. But at those times I realised just how many people love what I do and this company......I received so many emails of surprise or question, "Karl where are you?" "What is happening to E&S?". A valuable lesson to myself....right there.

Communication is what E&S is about, I have realised, all those people that i do not see or hear from are those that are keeping E&S alive, the people that follow and support it........just because i do not see or hear from them doesnt mean that they dont exist.

So, my summary and most important lesson? Well, of the many positive thoughts, what is prominent.....it is that goodwill is being created through expression. In a world where many people feel so alone and confused, so tangled up with the vagaries of life, taking part in E&S is a source of nourishment for them, they wait to see what poem appears next, or story, or who else joins the social area and becomes their next literary friend.

Social Networking Site

2011-04-07T12:48:00.000-07:00

Ok, Karlingo here again...the CEO of Epithet and Synonym Literary Co..... Today I will talk a little about the social networking site that is set up on the Company Website, as I have been asked a few important questions about it.

Firstly, yes....the site is totally free, and anybody is welcome to just click and join, once a member you can remain as observatory or involving as you desire. Of course, participation is encouraged.

I have been asked what it is about, and what it is for......

Well, very basically it is a social networking site for people interested in the arts, literature, music and language. They tell the others about the languages they speak, their skills, hobbies and so on when they sign up, from then they can post their own stories to the public library and communicate and network with others similar to them.

ok, that is all I have to say on this occasion....please feel free to contact me at E&S if you have any questions through the website.

Karlingo.

E&S Company Website

2011-04-04T03:26:00.000-07:00

Well, this literary company has been in existance now for three years. A literary consultancy and language centre, twinned with a social networking site. Nearly three years ago to the day I snapped my fingers and came up with the "Epithet and Synonym Literary Co" idea....it is growing, gaining momentum.

About the website, it is now fully functioning and even has a "Social Networking" corner, I have started advertising for members. I am sure that it will be packed out in no time with heaps of literature and arts lovers.

So, to any new people reading this....more people are needed to join this company, so please enter the company website and join. Much appreciated.

See here : Epithetandsynonym.biz

A short story...

2011-03-19T12:52:00.001-07:00

Sitting on the train today, with an hour left to go until i reached London a story was written. More of a pondering really, a purge of some vacant thoughts I had during the trip. I have put it on the stories page, let me know what you think please everybody.

"Spinney Vine Crescent", about a third way through writing it......

2011-03-14T15:27:00.000-07:00

Well, writing this novel is fun, im enjoying it....immense fun actually. I am immersed into the imagery so much that I'm forgetting to eat, forgetting the time, and occasionally forgetting to even answer the phone. The story is in sepia, not intentionally, it somehow has ended up that way, kind of interesting how it gives focus. At the moment, albeit from a readers visual perspective, ie on the outside looking in I (I say "i", I'm not really in the novel) am approaching the old house, but dare not cross. It is far too sinister. Everything is creaky, dusty......

Here in lies.....an issue. Today's pondering focuses not on whether I should surprise or shock the listener, yes some red would be good amongst the sepia imagery, like a stark descriptive surprise, but in how disturbed i should make the reader, history must play a part in this house, there has to be something unrevealed, something wrong....a trigger or cause....like "omg....what has gone on here?"

To personify or Not to personify.....

2011-03-07T13:56:00.000-08:00

Well, today I am trying to write some more of my current novel.....but i am rather stuck. You see, I am not sure whether or not I should create a descriptive imigery around the tangible objects in the story by pinning them to the personality of the person being described, or do I personify them as independent items, which collectively create the necessary image...

Its a conundrum to be beheld....after all, I could do both.

Authors Wanted for this blog !

2010-09-01T11:07:00.000-07:00

I am Karlingo Lorefield, the creator of E&S....I am looking for a few authors to join me in posting to this blog. You can expect to post pretty much what you want, with just one rule, make it relative to Literary, Linguistic or Artistic influences.

People with good clear English Preferred, but if your enthusiasm is stronger than your English ability I will certainly support you!

Contact me via my profile on this blog (see down the right hand side of the main page). Please head your email with "Epithet Website : Author Position" I shall get back to you very soon.

What is a Synonym ?

2010-08-13T11:29:00.000-07:00

A Synonym is a word which has a similar or identical meaning to another word. This is said to be Synonymous. In addition, a set of circumstances can be synonymous. For example, it could be said "Gold and Silver is synonymous with Quality".

Simple examples of Synonyms are :

Soaked / Wet
Over / Above

What is An Epithet ?

2010-08-11T12:22:00.000-07:00

An Epithet is a word which is used, often in addition to a persons name to give them additional character. Epithets are used in a descriptive or informative sense when speaking about a person, but can also be used as a title. Examples of this are :

"Alfred the Great",
"Richard the Lionheart",
"President Lincoln",

Epithets can be used, and often are as insults too. An example could be :

"Silly Dog"

Poets and Writers Wanted !

2010-08-06T02:52:00.000-07:00

Do you have a piece of your own writing or poetry you are proud to show the world ? Something close to your heart, something that made you smile ?

If so, click one of the pages to your right and let us know. We will provide feedback to those we really like and display them in our "Superlative Writers" page.

Your work will be placed on the necessary page to the right for as long as you wish. It is free and we wont re-display it without your permission. Expect lots of feedback though from other viewers !

Epithet and Synonym Virtual Cafe

2010-07-16T10:24:00.000-07:00

Nowadays, no Business is fully complete without a parallel online or virtual presence ! Not everybody can get to a real cafe to see the performances or get involved in the literary activities, right ? A key word here is "Inclusion", even online equal opportunity is very important.

I have been asked by at least 40 people already where the Cafe Venue has gone from within "Second Life".....Well, even virtual cafes need refurbishing sometimes ! It will be back soon.

We will keep you updated here. See "The Virtual Cafe" page to your right if youre not sure what this is.

GCSE JAPANESE AT RAWLINS COMMUNITY COLLEGE: LEICESTERSHIRE UK

2010-07-10T09:05:00.001-07:00

Phew! What a challenge. The students for the first ever GCSE Japanese course in the region got through their exams. Initial comments seem good. There will definately be a good range of passes, with even some "A grade" students amongst them.

Well done to all those that took part, a portion of the learning was done online, and with great success. You are all "Avante Garde" and shall appear in the press as a result, fingers crossed for good results guys!

With both the English and Japanese Olympic teams based at Loughborough, activity around here shall be pretty hot, and we are being watched.....will keep you updated.

Enrolments have started again for the new GCSE Course at Rawlins College (Tel 01509-622827) and for a short 10 Week beginner course at Burleigh Community College (01509-554400). Contact them directly if you wish to take part, or use this website to show interest. Full details may be emailed upon request.

New Literary Group In RL......

2010-07-10T09:01:00.000-07:00

At Rawlins Community College Quorn, United Kingdom.

Hi Everybody, im Karlingo Lorefield, the founder of "Epithet and Synonym". I shall be starting a new literary group entitled "Literary buffet" soon, offline. The Objective is to give people the chance to select, take part in, learn about literature and the arts in its many forms in the everyday world. Emphasis shall be placed on guided autonomy and productivity. Hopefully we shall have lots of people opening up and blossoming, and revealing their literary talents! The members of the course shall have access to and be able to display and discuss their work on this website. In addition a book of stories and poetic works shall be produced, please see the bookshop page to your right. Anybody wishing to take part in this course please use the "Contact Us" page, or give Rawlins Community College a call directly on 01509-622827.

Watch this space to see updates on how it shall progress.

Movie Night at E&S!

2010-04-14T18:40:00.000-07:00

So, movie night at E&S was a success!

Tonight we played our movie out on the patio for people who wanted a relaxing evening full of laughter.

Quite a few people stopped by to see what it was all about.

I also got to meet a lovely artist!!! I hope we will be able to put some of her work up in the gallery soon. Eeep!

Thank you for those of who were able to make it to the movie and support Epithet and Synonym!

-Delilah

New Art!

2010-04-05T15:41:00.000-07:00

Keep watch over the art gallery at E&S!

We have some amazing artists framing and hanging some amazing new works!

When you stop by, click the picture to the right and rate us!

If you'd like to leave a comment, it will be posted on a really awesome website that highlights SL art exhibits.

Show your love for E&S and vote!

Happy Anniversary E&S

2010-04-05T14:50:00.000-07:00

I am so please to announce that our beloved E&S has turned one year old!
If you're reading this blog, then stop by sometime and give thanks to the genius who made our hangout spot!
His name is Karlingo Lorefield.

So, on the day of the Anniversary, I sent out quite a few notices to join us for some cake.

We also had live music playing.

Thank you so much for those who stopped by, seeing new faces and old friends really made the day special.

A Big Welcome To Delilah Sandalwood....

2010-04-05T13:19:00.000-07:00

May we take the opportunity to welcome Delilah Sandalwood to the Business as our publicist. Delilah has extensive experience in the media and fashion industry, her specialism being Photography and writing.....

She will be a very strong asset to the "Epithet And Synonym" entity as it continues to grow and shape.

Welcome Aboard Delilah!

Shards of Glass, by Karlingo Lorefield

2010-03-20T13:28:00.001-07:00

Shards of Glass
Incomplete moments....irony abounds....Shards of glass............

Not what we used to be, in pieces we are....it gets easier over time, weathered by experience, moved by hope, our pain lessens along with time.

Looking back, wishing for the past, futility remains the order of the jigsaw here.

By Karlingo Lorefield (Karl George) ©May 2009.

our Friend "Rockford"

2010-03-07T14:44:00.000-08:00

This guy likes our little establishment so much that after paying a tip, he even started doing the hoovering !

When I said "Lets all work together" I didnt quite mean that, but hey ho! Hats off to the guy for his efforts, the cafe looks ready for business again now after this week of gallery visitors :)

A big thanks.....

2010-03-07T14:32:00.001-08:00

A massive thanks to all whom attended the gallery event. It was successful, in all about 40 visitors turned on during the couple of hours to say hello and show support.

"DIGITAL DREAMTIME" Art Exhibition

2010-02-21T12:03:00.000-08:00

ARTIST OPENING EVENING AT THE EPITHET GALLERY

On the 1st March we are having an opening evening for a very avant garde Dutch artist by the name of "Laurenz".

The exhibition is called "Digital Dreamtime" and is a selection of his favourite works. This is a new concept for Laurenz, whom has never had his art displayed in such a way before, he is excited about the kind of feedback he shall get from gaining such exposure.

His Agent, Kristen Stradling says: "I really love Laurenz' work and I hope other people will be as excited about it as I am. He can't be here himself because of his prehistoric computer, but he said he is delighted to have me as his agent and hopes a lot of people will see his art."

Each piece of art shall be for sale for a few lindens, please also check out his website where you can see and read more about this very talented but prolific artist.

http://laurenz.exto.nl/
(cut and paste the above to your browser and say hi to the artist!)

Again, please feel free to leave comments here on this blog.

Remember to support this website by leaving a donation either in Second life to Karlingo Lorefield, or via paypal, it is much appreciated.

A post to the Germans from Beate Avon

2009-12-22T13:37:00.000-08:00

So, I asked around what Epithet and Synonym meant to you guys, and I got a whopping two comments. Two is better than none, but come on! We can do better than that lovelies. I asked my friend Beate Avon what she thought, and she blessed me with this beautiful and inspiring message.

From Beate Avon: Her Thoughts on Epithet and Synonym

Sicher macht es Spaß in einem Laden zu stöbern, sich ein neues Kleid, Top, Haare usw. zu besorgen und das Wunderbare ist, dass alles ganz toll sitzt, aber was dann?
Du reist von einem Ort zum anderen, wenn Du Glück hast findest Du einen netten Menschen, der ein bisschen mehr zu erzählen hat, oder wenn Du Pech hast triffst Du …?
Aber es gibt einen Ort an dem es nette und gemütliche Ecken gibt an dem Du meistens Menschen triffst die ein bisschen mehr als „lol“ sagen können und die dich herzlich begrüßen.
Ja so einen Ort gibt es sogar in dieser Welt und wenn man Glück hat zeigt der Besitzer auch sein Lieblingsprojekt – den Rest darf er Dir selbst erzählen! :-)

(In English)

Sure it´s fun to look in a shop, to buy a new skirt, top or hair and it´s fabulous everything fits very well – but then?

Vou are moving from one place to another . If you are lucky you will meet a nice guy who is able to tell you a bit more, but if you are unlucky you will meet …..?

But there is a place where are nice and cosy places, where you will meet mostly nice people who are able to say a bit more than lol and who are say „welcome“.

Yes such a place exists even in this world und if you are lucky the owner will show you his favourite project – the remaining story will be told by him

Hello My Epithet Lovelies!

2009-12-17T12:59:00.000-08:00

Esme Selona here, and this is my first blog for Epithet and Synonym. Whenever I usually blog it's always about me me me, so bare with me if I get conceited. Right now, our main focus, lovelies, is the beautiful Epithet and Synonym. It's a fanciful cafe for all the intellectuals in Second Life. We open you with welcome arms and embrace you with hugs and kisses. What exactly is the meaning of Epithet and Synonym? Well, let's look up the literal definition.

Epithet- an adjective or descriptive phrase expressing a quality of the person or thing mention

Synonym- a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language

So, what I got from that is expressing the quality of this fine cafe and it's fine people in multiple words that mean the same thing. Is that basically what everybody got? If that's not what you got from the literal meanings and definitions, what did you get? Leave it in the comment section below.

So, since we can all look past the literal meaning of things, let's look at your point of view about the cafe. What does it mean to you? To me, it means friendship, new relationships, good conversations, happiness, and understanding. Friendship and new relationships because new people and veterans of the cafe are always milling about sitting around playing games and talking. Good conversations because talking leads to conversation which leads to good. Did you follow me on that one? Yeah, me neither. Happiness because this uniformity of the Epithet community is such a joyous positive one. We are always helping each other understand (my last meaning of Epithet) second life, relationships, cultures, and so much more. We are always looking for more people to join our community, so please, give us a try. We want to know what this beautiful community means to you. Show Epithet some love and drop by the cafe or leave a comment below. Or both (:

Have a wonderful day Epithet lovelies.

I guess I should probably mention that if you make a comment, it has a good possibility of being displayed in the next post I make, so comment!

First Official Art Exhibition

2009-12-06T05:45:00.000-08:00

DECEMBER'S FEATURED ARTIST: MISCHKIA VELINOV
Opening: Saturday, December 5, 11am to 1pm SLT (PST)

A superlative celebration of the pensive and exquisite photography of Mischkia Velinov, on exhibit at the new Epithet & Synonym Art Gallery throughout the month of December.

For the opening more than 20 people attended, all whom were dressed to the nines. The evening was a success, with at least 26 art works being sold!

The Gallery manager Jadyn Firehawk stated "I have never seen so much interest at an opening evening before, and certainly have never seen so many artworks being sold in one singular night, we shall have a new artist every month, already there is a waiting list".

A big thank you for the support to all whom attended. May it continue to be a success.

Group Population Exceeds 300!

2009-11-28T04:47:00.001-08:00

This place is growing so steadily, it has such a great group of people...here is a group pic of some of the regulars. They are all brilliant people and make the cafe have a heartbeat. Thank you everybody.

2009-09-27T14:04:00.000-07:00

A Great poem : Thanks to "Molly Lowbeam" :

"i live in a sandbox thats me,
mollybut dont try to rez me,
it'll be your folly i may be a lassie
but i aint no collie
if i made the choice
then i could be your dolly,
or i'll stay sandbox safe
where i am quite jolly"

Group population Exceeds 150!!!!

2009-09-27T04:16:00.001-07:00

The group is growing and contains over 150 people now!!! It is becomming more active, some of our other poets have started sending out group notices containing poems.

Please continue to share your own, everybody in the group has the ability to send notices.

Live Entertainment

2009-08-09T08:34:00.000-07:00

We now have professional live singers affiliated to the sim. Introducing, "Euterpe Queller", an first class singer and performer, with such a superlative voice. She will be performing to live to a cafe audience on the 22nd of August 2009 at 4pm Pacific day time. Looking forward to it. Everybody is welcome to come along....

On Friday the 7th, live poem readings were performed by Karlingo Lorefield, with some of his own works, and some written by Epona Vella. In the audience were a novelist and lady whom is producing the Rocky Horror Picture show. Thank you for everybody whom came and enjoyed with us.

A Great Hangout !

2009-06-11T14:35:00.000-07:00

Our hangout opened on the 4th of April 2009, it already has a few loyal customers.

We even have a novelist who pops by for a chat.....a resident cat, and a magical floating dog too! What more could we want lol.